Hello and welcome to addiction truths brought to you by country road Recovery Center. I'm your host, Chris rosenbrin, in this podcast series, we delve deep into the profound impact of addiction on families. We share insights, experiences and advice on navigating this challenging journey before we begin a gentle reminder to our valued listeners, while we deeply appreciate your engagement and encourage you to reach out with questions, comments or concerns, please refrain from posting the names of family members who are currently in our program or who have been in the past. Your discretion helps us maintain the privacy and safety of all involved. We're here to offer support, answer questions and build a community of understanding and healing. So let's start the conversation and bring some truths about addiction into the life. Hey everybody, welcome to addiction truths podcast episode number four. We're in the month of April now. It's amazing on time. How fast sounds fun? Mm, hmm, um, I'm joined today by Cathy and Derek. If you're, if you've been a loyal listener, then you realize and recognize that we're not in the same office today. We're not, no, we're in the new Pathways office. It's pretty cool stuff. Yeah, I was listening to the podcast last week. So one thing I do after we record the podcast is I go back and I listen to what needs to be edited out. Say Derek says something crazy. I have to go back and time stamp that so our team can edit it out. It's multiple.
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We can have an entire podcast of just the outtakes, right? Outtakes? Yeah, I don't think that we would get very good. And me, it might be funny. You know, last, actually, last podcast, we did pretty good, but I noticed I said a really funny word. I said it, I said, I can't remember the word that I said, but I said it in a really funny way. It's weird when you go back and listen to podcasts, right? You've done and you can hear the cadence, you can hear your cadence and how you talk, and you can hear like you really get nitpicky. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, I sound like that. I talk like that. That's my personality. Ew, ew, gross.
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So we're kind of running on the same theme here. We're going to talk about
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this podcast. If you're new to this podcast is designed to be to help smash the stigma of what it's like to be a family member with a loved one that's struggling with addiction, because the whole family struggles. It's not just the person that's struggling with substance abuse, it's the whole family dynamic that crumbles around that person, and so it but, but the but,
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the
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the the attention is focused on the addict, because they seem to, they seem to be the they're the biggest problem. Yeah, they look like the biggest problem in the in the relationships. So what we're going to talk about today is just a little bit of little bit about what substance addiction is, what it means to recover from from addiction, what it's like for the family to recover from addiction. So let's dive into it. Addiction is something that is chronic. It's progressive and it's fatal. Chronic can be, yeah, can be fatal.
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Chronic is that
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it progresses constantly. It then it's not going to go away. Just because I've been sober three years does not mean tomorrow, if I picked up a drink that I wouldn't go right back to the same person that I was three years ago. I mean, I'm going to drink. If I drink tomorrow, it's going to be like nothing ever changed. Going to come right back. I'm just at a state of,
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what would it be called, instead of the cancer patients, in remission, remission. It's kind of in remission for me. Yeah, it's kind of in remission. And it's progressive. If I don't take, if I don't take action in my if I don't, if I don't take any action, and I, and I'm staying in addiction, it's going to get worse. It never gets better. There might be periods time where I can hold together, like two weeks of sobriety, and it seems like life is getting better for me. Yeah, the reality is, it's just going to, it's about to come down to a crash again, right? And then it's fatal. It's something that for me, because it was chronic, it wasn't going to go away, because it never stopped getting worse. There was going to come a time where drugs, now call killed me, and so it's, you know, that's kind of what it looks like on my side.
04:39
Wow. Say I've heard lots of folks in recovery that have talked about the fact that
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they knew it was heading for death, and the part they hated is they knew it wasn't going to be anytime soon. They were going to live miserable and have a really good.
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A
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family's fear constantly, I was gonna say daily, but it's like every second is that constant fear of is today, the day that there's an overdose, your liver fails, whatever it is, is some of that fear Cathy from a family member's perspective? Because obviously we know that there's super high comorbidity with addiction and mental health and emotional related issues, is some of the fear, in addition to that, also that somebody ends up deciding to take their life absolutely, yeah, that's been the experience in my family at different points with certain family members. Yeah, how common that was? Oh yeah, because it's something I've heard too, that, you know, folks in recovery talk about, you know, that was the fear that I was going to like live another 30 years like this, but they didn't have the courage to just end it themselves, because they were so miserable and sick of all of it. But yeah, absolutely, you're you're, anytime the phone rings, is terrifying because you don't know what that's going to be. Was there a car accident? Did they overdose? Did they get shot when they were picking something up from their dealer? Are they in jail again? Like you just never know what that phone calls might be. So anytime that phone reads, it's terrifying.
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What do you see
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when somebody comes? I guess. What I mean by this, that's a good question. Yeah, it's a big question. And what I meant, I had half the question in my head, right? And half of it came out, yeah? So, as we do. But so what I see a lot in treatment folks coming into country road is that people think that once they are cured of once they stop taking the drugs and alcohol, life will get better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%
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I think there's a big
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part of this conversation for me that always revolves around trying to help
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suffering people and suffering families understand that
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the goal of treatment and of change isn't chemical freeness. It's not being free of alcohol. It's not being free of opiates or whatever the your methamphetamines, whatever it might be that somebody's struggling with, like,
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and that, because that's a that's a goal that's going to leave you wanting, right? Like, there are a lot of people, and you know this from being in the program, you know this from being in your program, there are a lot of people that stop drinking, that stop using chemicals, and never change anything else. Yeah, they're still miserable, they're still in tons of pain. They're the exact same person they were when they were using now, just chemical free or alcohol free, right? That, to me, is a very bad goal, because if I'm going to be miserable, I might as well be drinking and be miserable, because then at least it eases my pain, right? So helping people understand that story is so much bigger and so much broader than just not putting a chemical in my body, I think starts with a really good, comprehensive definition of addiction. Because when we define addiction just about a chemical in the body, and I know like, I feel like I'm gonna get comments or emails, like, there's, there's clearly, like, a scientific definition of addiction, right? What I want to do is I want to, like, expand that to have a more soulful definition of addiction that kind of transcends that, because when we've got this really reductionistic view of addiction, that addiction is just about my body's chemical dependence on alcohol, then what we do, by default and by accident is we make recovery a process of removing alcohol, not process of change, right? And so when we've got a really good understanding of addiction in a way that helps us define it, not just by the chemical addiction, but also by the ways that it creates damage throughout different areas of my life, then we begin to create this like big, broad blanket of recovery that not just helps me get chemical free, but helps me change my social relationships and my emotional stability and regulation, and my spiritual health and wellness, And my physical health and level of fitness and all of those things, then get blanketed to have, like, this really robust program of recovery that, I think is what people are really after, right? Yeah, I don't know how many times I've heard drew say, if it were just about getting the substance out of your body, people could go to detox and they'd be fine, good to go, yeah, yeah. And also ask him how many times he's been through a detox and was not okay. It does not work like that. Yeah, it's a challenging view, especially to somebody that doesn't know anything about drug and alcohol addictions, that drugs and alcohol aren't the problem and they've never been the problem. Yeah?
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They're a symptom of the problem, and the problem was always me, right? I'm the common denominator in the problem. Take drugs and alcohol away, I'm going to seek out other ways to make myself feel better if I don't have a proper solution. How often do you see that with people in the rooms that you're in where they're alcohol free or they're cocaine free, but now they've got a sex problem or porn problem, or a shopping problem or a food problem or a relationship problem, right? It's just like this. This. The cross addiction is created because we focus the problem on the chemical and not the person.
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I see it a lot. Yeah, I see it a lot. I mean, I see it in my own life too. Yeah, if I'm not spiritually faith, because there's, there's multiple components to addiction. There's the physical component, which is, which is what you've been talking about, that chemical dependency. And my body is now chemically dependent to opiates. I am going to experience a withdrawal and get sick and have flu like symptoms when I do not take opiates, but when that is gone, there's a mental component. Maybe some of my some of my brain chemicals are off balance, you know, I'm not receiving the right, the right amount of chemicals in the brain to experience long like, you know, stability or and then there's the spiritual plane. And I'm working out my problems on a spiritual plane. Well, if I'm not right, if I'm not, if I'm not taking what? And it sounds funny to think you could solve addiction with things like prayer, meditation, doing inventories, examining the character defects that I have, which, like you're saying, can be shopping, it can be porn, it can be it can be an anything that makes me feel better. One of mine is spending money. Yeah, if I can, I can get that little worst of feel good chemicals by spending money. But there's a more of a long term solution that comes into play when you're talking about prayer, you're talking about connecting with God, a power that's greater than you realize that I'm not the center of the universe.
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It's taken every year to get to this point. We talk about that in some of our like, like emotional regulation and coping skills group that and I might be like,
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at risk of crucifying myself in the industry when I say things like this, but like therapists, I my opinion, this might not be the official opinion of country, roads, recovery,
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cover, my basic no
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for for years, I think therapists have done a disservice to clients by like, convincing them that all they need is better coping skills. Like, oh, you just gotta have some ways to cope with life, and you need to cope better. And that is not a solution that lasts because, and this is almost, I tell this story, which is completely made up. Like, I'm sure that there are stories that are sad in the world, right? But when I'm when I'm facilitating this group, I ask the clients, I'm like, hey, if I have
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a 22 year old girl come into my office,
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you know, for treatment, and I and I asked her this same question, if you ever been to therapy, you get this question right off the bat, what brings you here? You know, people are like, are you? What do you mean? What brings me here? I'm a drug addict, right? But if I'm like, You know what? You know, why are you in treatment? And I start that conversation, and she says, you know,
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you know, right out of high school, I married my high school sweetheart. We were both, you know, freshly 18 and and madly in love. And, you know, we just grew up and, you
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know, really rural Oklahoma, and there wasn't a lot of opportunities. So we got married, he went to work in the oil field. Had a really good job for a guy that didn't go to college. And, you know, I got pregnant at 19, and he was working hard and taking care of us. And,
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you know, because of my family situation, he was really all I had and my baby, and he had an oil field accident and died.
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And, you know, I didn't have an education or any job, or, you know, we didn't have life insurance, and those kind of things that people of privilege have. And,
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you know, probably three months later, I get evicted from my little rent house. And you know, it's just me and my baby, and we're living on the street. You know, living on the streets hard for a young woman, so I sexually assaulted a handful of times. I didn't know really how to cope with that, so I started drinking and using some street drugs. And, you know, about six months ago, like me and the kid, we were just so hungry that I didn't have any other options, and I went to Walmart to steal some food. Got busted for shoplifting, but because my kid was in the car, the officers called DHS, and they came and took my baby. And, you know, I'm really trying to get it back, but I can't pass the UA, and so I'm here. You know, how much sense would it make for me to look at that young lady and go, have you tried journaling? What
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you know you maybe you should exercise a little bit like you need better coping.
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Skills, right? You can't cope your way out of that kind of stuff, right? And so what we do is we've convinced people that like learning to cope is their solution when that's really not their solution at all. Because most of the time, what people end up doing is creating coping skills that are just positive ways to run from their feelings, right? Going to the gym, you know, playing a sport or having a hobby. And what happens is that thing, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. And this kind of I'm coming full circle when we talk about cross addictions a second ago, right?
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The point is, is that anything I use to try to escape a feeling or a problem that I'm having is not a healthy use of that thing
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that's running from my problems, not coping with my problems. And we've trained people that that's the solution, right when it's a far better solution, to learn how to like sit in my anxiety and meditate through that and not ruminate on it, but think through the way that I'm feeling, process through the way I'm feeling in a way that makes me healthy. And then I use coping skills to help alleviate the day to day life stresses that I have. I cope with a hard day at work, you know, by engaging in a hobby or going to the gym, I don't cope with trauma, and I don't cope with the the lifelong pain that I've been through. I've gotta be present with that, or it's just going to eat me alive. And I'm going to run. I'm going to have a gym addiction instead of an alcohol addiction. I'm going to do other absurd things, yeah, make the problem worse. Yeah, yeah. I
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one of the solutions I found to be best in my life. And I don't think this is this just pertains to people that are in recovery from addiction. I think this is like the whole people problem. I think we carry around some weight, and the weight that I'm talking about are secrets, things that have happened to us, things that we've done, things that we never thought we could do, but did it.
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We all carry around secrets like that, sure, and what happens is we build up these secrets, and we build we make the mountain out of a molehill in our mind, our mind magnifies on that problem, because we think about pretty consistently. And what we tell ourselves is, man, if anybody knew I have done or what I have been through, they would not love me, and if they didn't love me, I would be alone, and if I was alone I would die alone, and if I'm, you know, we run down the rabbit. Maybe we don't realize right at first, that, and I certainly didn't realize that a lot of the problems I was experiencing in my life,
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they weren't necessarily because of the event. They were because of the shame and the guilt and the remorse that I've built up in my mind because of the event, and immediately, once I mark was a therapist out at country road, he was my therapist when I went through country road few years back, and he sat me down in the office. And this is why I'm such a big proponent for 90 day treatment. I don't think treatment happens in a bubble, but I think there can be really positive things that happen when you are in a bubbles, in a safe place around you know, people that can help process through these things. But anyway, I was sitting with Mark. I came into country road with a mask, and the mask was because I was afraid that you find out who I really was. And Mark, he's been working with young men like me since he started the industry, and so he sees right through my mask. Oh, we get to about day 45 and he's like, you've told me nothing, but what? Exactly what you want to tell me. You haven't told me anything of any substance. You know, there's no sustenance in what you're saying. It's all wishes and it's what you want me to see of you, there are three things that you've got inside of you that you don't want me to know, and those are the three things that are going to keep you sick and they're going to keep you in the cycle of addiction. So one of the things I want to challenge you is that we talk about one of those things. We just get one of those things out. And it wasn't until day 80 where I was ready to talk about those things. The only reason I was ready to talk about it was because Mark said we had been having that conversation pretty consistently. And every time he'd see me walk in the hall, he'd be like, ready, ready? You ready to talk about that sounds right? So constantly I'm thinking, Okay, I got this. I'm going to talk about it. I got this. And we sat down in his office, and he was like, alright, we're not going to talk about anything until you talk about what told what you're holding back. He knew I was ready to talk about it. He I just, he did. There just needed to be some awkward silence for me to get it out. How long did you sit there? I'm probably five minutes. Max, yeah,
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and I said it. I just said it.
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He said, Why are you holding on to that? Why are we just now at day 80, talking about this when we could have been working on it the whole time. I love you. Anyway, kiddo, I You are not the first person that has experienced that. You are not the last person who has experienced that. And what you think you've done that's so bad, isn't that bad? It's a normal human thing to have done. And so what happened was that.
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That shredded all of the shame, instantly shredded all the shame and guilt that I felt, and I, for the first time, was experiencing a feeling that came from substances. It's the same type of feeling that comes from substances. I'm going to be okay. Everything in my life is okay. I am who I think I can be and so,
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and I'm forever thankful for that, and since then, I've gotten the other two things out multiple times and but the amazing thing is, is I'm confiding in somebody that I trust. I don't. I'm not going to go and tell anybody the secrets that I have. That would be ridiculous, but I find people that I can trust with those secrets,
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and I tell them when I talk about it, because, man, those secrets, they've kept me sick. And
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they've kept me sick because they distanced me from other people. But in my mind, it sets me apart, you know, and so,
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you know, I don't, and, like, I said, I don't think this is just, this isn't just confined to people with addiction. This is, like, this is human problem. Yeah,
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yeah. Well, what you experience, man is the very like, dealing with shame is so counterintuitive, because all of Shane's shames power in our lives is because it's in the dark and it's hidden, and we've locked it away in this closet, right? And the the very way to reduce its power is to do the thing we don't want to do, which is drag it out in front of people, in front of other human beings, and shed some light on it, you know? Which always starts with one, one person at a time, right? That that one person that you might have real intimacy with or have real trust with, maybe for some people, but for the first time ever, this is the only person I've ever trusted, right? Yeah, and a lot of times in treatment that starts with a therapist. A lot of times, maybe not in treatment and programs, it starts with a sponsor. Or, you know, for some people, even in treatment, it started with their roommate. I've had conversations with my clients who are like, outside of my roommate, I've never told anybody this. I'm like, well, we should trust your roommate enough that you're having these pillow talk conversations, right? Shame, you know. But I think, and maybe you've experienced this, that there are definitely like, I don't, I'm not advocating that people like, should tweet their secrets and shame, right? Like, that's probably not a good idea, but the more that we drag that out, the more we end up, over time, being really comfortable talking about it in almost any setting. Yeah, right. You know, especially in small group settings, like, the more we're comfortable sharing our story, and the more we're comfortable, you know, potentially, like writing an article about it, or doing the things, or sharing it at a conference or whatever. And so it's just this constant, hey, I'm going to keep bringing it out and keep bringing it out until I'm okay with it. Yeah. Well, like you said, the more you're doing it, the more you're realizing you're not, you're you did not ring with the wheel. You're not the first person who's done this, trust me, odds are, whoever you're talking to, especially if you're in a program, has done that and worse, and nobody's judging you. They still love you for who you are. Like, it's that's one of the coolest things. Is like, when you do find yourself, find your way into a program, The scary thing is walking in, because they're strangers. What are they going to think of me? I can't tell them all the crazy things I've done, because, trust me this side of things. We do some crazy things. And know what if somebody knows me like and then you have to get to the point where you go, Oh my gosh, all these people are here for the same reason I am. But if you can find like that, sponsor, mentor, what have you, and you do build that trust and relationship. Because ironically, I talked about this last year that, like, I have not ever had the courage to go to therapy, trust me, I need it, but I've never found the courage to do that. But realizing, once I got into my program that I'm like, I'm basically going to therapy with this person ish, and I'm having to tell this person that I didn't know from Adam five minutes ago, all my secrets, yeah, all the crazy things I've done, um, but it's like you said, you build up that relationship and that trust and that intimacy, and once you get that stuff out, and you know that person's like, you're still a good person, I still love you, you still have value, like I've done it too, like it's, it's so freeing. There's so much power in that that like shared experience, yeah, you know, because what we find most of the time when we bring Shane to the table is that even in the room that we're in, even if it's a small group therapy session, even with the three of us, if I said, Here's my stuff podcast,
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the chances of one or both of you going,
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me too is really hot. Yeah, super high. And that's a part of the lie that our problems tell us, is that it's just you. You're the only one that's ever thought that you're the only one that ever does that don't tell anybody, and what it really is is a much more common experience. And.
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That hearing other people go, Yeah, I did that. I've been through that that happened to me. I think that you're like, oh,
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maybe I'm not so broken and twisted and messed up, you know, maybe I'm just normal, yeah, you know? I remember when I first started working with the mentor of my program, one of the first things we did is we sit down and talked about all the ways that my life was like, completely unmanageable, and just all all of the crazy. And we kind of broke all of it down, talked through it where I felt powerless in life, because, trust me, I did, which is ironic, because in my brain, I was controlling all of the things, um, and we it eventually came down to everything came back to one thing, which I did, I think I knew, but I didn't want to admit but it literally all just came down to fear, like everything, secrets, behaviors, not being able to talk about secrets and behaviors. All of it comes down to fear. And more often than not, even today, when I have something crazy going on, at the root of it is fear and yeah, fear of what you're
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being judged, yeah, um, people leaving, um, it
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was totally someone hating me, yeah? Like being alone, yeah? Oh yeah, yeah. Fear of not getting what I want, yes, or fear of losing what I already have, yes, that those two, yeah, those two played a big Yeah, big part of it, yeah for me. So I have a funny it's kind of a funny story. I don't know if it's funny, it's funny for me. So I get to the point where I'm like, Man, drugs and alcohol, I just, I can't. I can't.
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It's basically step one. It is step one in a 12 step program, right? I'm powerless. Oh, that's unmanageable, clearly. So we're working through some steps and stuff and
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get step four. And step four is writing out a an inventory, a very honest inventory, very thorough inventory, of what your what,
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what you know, of your resentments, of your fears, of the
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of the eye, of your idea of the world and how you have harmed others. That's, that's basically what a 12 step inventory is. And so I get down on on almost paper I'm writing, writing, um, I fill up about, realistically, I probably could have filled up more pages, but I knew I was going to be telling somebody this stuff, so I just, like, wrote little notes. Because the Jews wasn't really into writing it. For me, it was telling it to others. Yeah,
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and at the time of my mentor, he's this, like,
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buff Navy Seal, scary looking dude, love with death. But when you're talking about, I've got these things on this piece of paper that I don't want to tell this guy, because, you know, I really admire who he is and stuff. But anyway, I've, I've made, I've done an honest first step, which means gotta get all the, you know, gotta, I've gotta do it. I wanna survive. So anyway, I'm over. I'm I'm going to his house, and all the way there. I can't, I don't even remember the drive there, of course. And then I've got the, like, the notebook in my paper. And he's like, okay, read it to me.
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And so I'm reading him all the little stuff. I got my mask up, and there's a couple things that I didn't write on there. I put it on paper, no? And I'm like, Alright, that's all I've got. And then he starts talking. And it might as well have been like the Charlie Brown, because
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all I'm thinking in my mind is, I didn't get it all. Get it all, yeah, I didn't get it all. I didn't get it all. And
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I was like, I can't hear anything you're saying. I have to tell you this. And then I just said it again. It was, this was the second time that I've ever but this was the secret two. In secret three, these were the ones that I'm not even going to tell Mark. You know, these are the ones that I'm like now I have to tell a retired Navy Sega, oh, my god, super scary, but I did it. And guess what? He said, I love you anyway,
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man, it's not it's just like you said, these are common problems that for whatever reason you know, society, our family, maybe we have maybe, maybe there's things that we've done that would negate the culture that we grew up with, or some of the principles that we grew up with, and we've done something, we're just like, Man, my family would love me for this. I'm
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going to lose something that I already have if I talk about this. The reality is, man,
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like you're saying, yeah, it's not, it's not, none of that's none of that's real. It's all things that I made up in my mind. Because when I said these things and I was tearing up, he's like, what? It's okay. It's okay. You You're fine. You're gonna be fine.
30:00
I love you anyway. Yeah, yeah. So I want to talk about
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this has been on my heart. I've been reading a book about it. You know, it's a Doctor Phil book. I'm not going to, Derek was going to, I'm not going to rouse you for reading a Doctor Phil self help book. It's good book, okay? It's called self matter. Cinder the ranch. That's all.
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That's all I'm gonna
30:23
30:31
So I didn't start my journey by making those big mistakes that I then held really close to my heart as secrets that kept making me sicker and sicker and sicker. I didn't start there. I started as a happy child. Yeah, I was a happy kid. I grew up in a pretty, pretty good home with the disney world a lot, had a lot of friends, just had a great childhood,
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you know. And then one day, I stepped over a boundary that I never thought I'd step over, but now I'm here. Smoke pot, drink some alcohol, Devil lettuce. Devil's lettuce. Like one time I got arrested. This is a side note,
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one time I got arrested and one of the cops was like, smoking the devil's leg.
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It was real serious too.
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I believe that he was real serious. Such a funny story wearing a cowboy hat use country? I'm surprised he didn't call it grass. I love what people call it grass and grass? Yeah,
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yeah. I didn't start my story. Did not start with those big, heavy secrets that I eventually told my mentor and told Mark. They started with simple crossing over a line. And so
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I think every time that I stepped over a line, it became a little bit easier to step over the next one. And I could tell myself, man,
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what's maybe you can explain this a little bit better and put it into some clinical terms, but it would be like, Man, what's, what's the next thing going to do anyway? What? What's the hurt in going a little bit further? And then that can also relate to how I let other people treat me one day,
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I, you know, I'm in a I'm in a relationship, and I get told a lie, and I'm like, You know what?
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We worked out that lie. I knew it was we we worked it out kinda,
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you know, they told me they were sorry for lying to me. We'll let this one slide, and then they do it again. And then I don't but I don't say anything.
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And so I'm letting the I'm letting a behavior become a little bit more normal, and before I know it, two years down the line, I know I'm getting lied to about everything in my life, everything that's going on in everything that's going on in this relationship, is something that I never expected myself to be in at all. It's so far off of what I it's so far off from what that happy kid thought he was going to have in life that I don't even know myself anymore. And then what? What's Can you explain this a little bit better in clinical time? I mean, probably not,
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but I think what you're saying is really important, especially when we start thinking about prevention work and working with young people and helping them understand the
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and I'm not. I don't
33:20
want to, like, sit here and like, I'm and pretend to be like, anti alcohol or even anti marijuana, like those things are evil and they should be eradicated from the planet, like,
33:30
but clearly they're damaging for a lot of people, and people don't know the honest risk about those things, especially As as young people, right? I mean, the research is super clear that if people just wait until they're 21 to start drinking, the rates of alcoholism drop like 80% you know, like, that's just waiting, you know, that's not saying, like, abstain from alcohol forever. It's just like, man, the young brain is so malleable to chemical influence, right? That when we start putting chemicals in it at
34:07
1215, even 18, you know?
34:12
And I mean, I think that's the big danger, especially in places like Oklahoma, where marijuana has become so popular and states have either fully legalized it or have medical marijuana, that might as well be recreational marijuana in Oklahoma, let's be honest. Um, the problem is that, like, really, if you're under 25 that's still really bad for your development, you know, and it's going to cause you problems. I mean, if you're 50 and you want to smoke weed a couple times a year, whatever, like, it's probably not going to hurt your brain from a brain health perspective, I'm not advocating that, right, but from a brain health perspective, that's not going to hurt your brain much, just like drinking a couple of times a year isn't really going to hurt your brain much, right? But the two big problems is, is we don't educate young people about what those chemicals do to the developing brain, and we don't educate.
35:00
Young people about even as adults, what are safe amounts and unsafe amounts? Right? Because I talk to people all the time, we're like, Yeah, I'm recreational marijuana user. And I'm like, okay, like, how much marijuana Do you smoke? And they're like, oh, you know, a couple of times a day. Well, that's not recreational marijuana use. Like, if you had somebody come in your office and say, Well, I drink socially. Oh, okay, how often do you drink? Well, I drink when I get up, and then I have some more lunch, and I drink a little bit when I get off work, and then right before I go to bed, I have one bit until we sleep. That's not social drinking.
35:31
That's alcoholism, right? And so we, we've all the all these people have convinced themselves that they're recreational marijuana users, and they smoke weed all day long, like they wake and bake and they smoke a little bit at lunch, when they get off work, they smoke some more, and then before they go to bed, they smoke some more. And that's what we call heavy marijuana use, and that's really problematic, even on an adult brain, you know? But we don't educate those people that. And so young people think like, oh, it's not that big a deal. I smoke a little bit of weed. Or if I got that, I'm doing it. I got my card. If I'm 18, I got my card, I'm doing it legally, or I start, I start to drink at parties and stuff. And they're a they're bad decision makers anyway, from a brain health development standpoint, yeah, but they just don't understand really how much risk is involved in marijuana and alcohol use for high school students and for middle school students. And
36:24
I think culture is kind of reinforced that it's not that big a deal and it's just backwards. It is that big. It's, you know, it might not be a big a deal for the 50 year old guy that you know on vacation takes an edible or something, you know, whatever, but for a young person to begin that process, I think you're right. It's like you starve, and you're like, a part of the problem. This goes way back to some other cultural things from when we were kids, right, with Dare and, oh yeah, all these scare tactics about drugs and alcohol. It's like I was growing up and I had a, you know, cop come into my school and show me scary pictures of crack cocaine and tell me, you know, if you smoke marijuana, your face is going to melt off, right? You know, all the kids in elementary school are like,
37:05
don't send the drug dogs to my house. Just Admiral, you know.
37:11
And we fearmonger to the point that now even the correct people that are trying to teach kids, hey, this is really dangerous, are put in the same bracket with people who have been crazy about it, you know? And so like people in my generation, it's like, we were told that. And then you know that you go to that party when you're a junior, and you have some drinks and you smoke some weed, you wake up the next day and you're like, my face didn't melt off. That felt great, yeah, like, What else were they lying about, right? And so I think when we do good prevention work, we've got to be honest with kids and we say, hey, the reason people get addicted to drugs is because, at least at the beginning, there's an upside. It's going to feel really good if you smoke weed, like, let's call it what it is like, the what that does to your brain, for most people, feels awesome, right? And all these other things are going to happen after that, right? And we've got to, when we're honest, I think, with young people about that reality, then they're like, Oh, I feel like this guy's telling me the truth. Maybe there's something to that. Maybe there's something to Hey, it is going to feel really good, but there's all of this risk that I'm going to develop, you know, problems in my brain health, or problems with addiction, or increases my chances of all of these things over time. Yes, and to me, that's much more of a believable pitch, you know, like, Hey, here's the upside and here's the downside. And a funny story that I would use when I did drug alcohol prevention with middle schoolers, that parents might not appreciate as much as middle school students, but I would tell them, I said, Hey, if I brought a bowl of M and M's in here, big bowl M and M's. Everybody loves M M's, right? Especially the ones Filipino. But those are my favorite. It was really good, yeah. And I said, I said, Hey, you have as many M M's as you want. All the kids are like, yeah. And then I'm like, But wait before you guys came in, I took one of those M M's, and I put it in my booty, and then I put it back in the bowl. I put it back in the bowl. Now there's hundreds of M M's in here. I'm like, How many of you would take an M M And inevitably, there'd be, like, two kids. And I'm like, future, I'll call it, yep, I wouldn't do that to him, I promise. But you know, most of the kids are like, No, I wouldn't eat all the risk of eating the eating the booty M, M is way too high, and I'm like, but you're willing to risk potential addiction with alcohol or with other things for that one like, it's the same scenario, and helping them understand, like, hey, how do I weigh out risk, and how do I understand that? Like, Man, this is a behavior that a lot of people are doing, but it comes with a huge wrestle on the back end. I think it's really important for young people. But yeah, we start crossing that line, and then we do it again and again. And for most people that have your experience, there were some fun times beginning, Oh, dude, there wouldn't have been doing it. It wasn't fun. Yeah, just all hell.
40:00
From the get go, yeah, the odds of me picking it up and going through nobody, nobody would ever do a chemical if there was no upside, right? I made the same joke with junior high kids. I said, there's a reason why nobody has a cat herd eating addiction
40:13
like nothing positive ever happens when you need a cat herd. So nobody has a problem with it, right? The reason people have a problem with weed or with alcohol is because, at least at the beginning, there's an upside, but we don't do a great enough or a well enough job at educating people of what the non upside potential is for a lot of those behaviors. Well, part two is like, you never know if you're that person, like you could have perfectly healthy parents. On that front, you don't know if you're going to be susceptible to addiction. It's it's not like, I mean, I'm sure it can run in the family, but I we get clients in looking at their family histories, no issues with either parents, no issues on either sides of parents family. They could have multiple siblings, but they are the one in that family, and you just don't know. And it's like, is it worth even risking
41:06
potentially your life by now, the exact same conversation I have with clients Kathy, when they say, once I get out of treatment, I'm probably still going to use marijuana, because I never had a marijuana problem, sure, right? I'm like, but you don't know if that marijuana use is going to trigger a methamphetamine relapse or not. Why is it worth the risk? Like, if you don't know, it's like your life is fine without it. Like, why roll the dice that you're going to be right back where you're at now just so that you can smoke a little bit of miracle marijuana? It makes zero sense logically, right?
41:44
That's because
41:47
they don't recognize that it's not, it's not about the weed. It's not about, right? Yeah, yeah, it's about they don't see. They don't see yet. Folks that say, like, I'm going to have just one drink or so, then that's the trick of the mind too, that that's the tricky thing about addiction. That's the that is the, I would say it's probably,
42:11
probably in lines with the chronic part of addiction. It's a there's a certain obsessive mindset. We call it the killer, the peculiar, peculiar, wow, peculiar mental twist. It's that peculiar mental twist.
42:31
But is what it so what? What happens? And I'll speak for myself, what happens is that, so I get sober, right? Life's going good. I'm making some new friends. This is the most variety I've ever had. The peculiar twist comes in and it says, well, Pierce. I think it. I think you can handle one drink my experience, if I were to go back on my experience or ask my family member. But hey, Mom, what do you think if I'd have one drink?
42:59
Have one drink. Look at what you're look at how far you've come. It's probably a reaction or like, are you serious? Are you serious? Right now, we just spent how much money for you bury under the house. Anyway, my mind says I can control it this time. Here's how it'll be different this time, here's how it's going to be different. It's the peculiar mental twist, yeah, and then it's going to set off a chain reaction where I'm going to be right back in the same it's the progressive part of it. There's the chronic part, yeah, there's the there's the the twist of the mind that I've got the chronic and then there's the progressive part of it. The progressive part is it never gets better, it always gets worse. And that's something for family members. If you've got somebody that's struggling with addiction and struggling with addiction and you think you can save them, touch back on that with Kathy here in a few but the progressive part of it is that
43:52
it'll never get better. It'll always get worse. I cannot safely have a single drink. I just can't. Man, I'm not going to speak for everybody, but that's what I've got. I've got that piece of me. I know I do, yeah, and
44:09
so if I think to myself, I can have one drink. I've already let the disease of alcoholism creep back in.
44:20
I want to talk. I want to I want to come back. I'll come back to this in a minute. I want to talk to Kathy what we're talking about just a few minutes ago.
44:29
Because I think it's, I think it's I think it's very relevant, and the way that we let other people treat us, if we have not taken the steps to,
44:46
I don't know how to say it, but set proper boundaries, I guess, like if we don't know,
44:52
what am I trying to say here?
44:55
Have you? Have you had an experience where you said, I'm not going to let somebody.
45:00
Treat me like this anymore, sure. And then 234, weeks later, look back and be like, Why am I back? Saying to myself, I'm never gonna let anybody treat me like this again.
45:12
That's, I mean, I was struggling with that. Yeah, absolutely, it's and again, it all comes back to fear, if I don't give in and give them money this time, what are they going to do to go get it if I don't? God, I've
45:27
got 100 examples going in my head, and I can't let them stop to pick one. But yeah, it all comes down to so many. What Ifs if, if I don't give them somewhere to sleep tonight, are they going to be safe on the streets, on their own. What if? What if? What if? And is, even though you know you're contributing to what they are doing and what's going on with them,
45:50
it comes back to the fear, if I don't what's going to happen, can I live with that if that happens? Is it my fault? If that happens, it's Yeah. And until you can learn like one of the hardest things for me to learn has been that other people's behaviors and choices have nothing to do with me. They are not my responsibility. I cannot stop you from doing something you're going to do
46:19
as much as I think I can. We spend so much time. You were talking a second ago about, you know, even thinking you can do some sort of behavior again, when you have a loved one in the throes of addiction, you are crazy. Starts out small too. So say you you're late coming home. Um,
46:42
it may start out with just calling to check on you. Did you answer the phone? Nope. I will call you again. Next thing you know, I'm blowing up your like, stage five clinger, crazy ex girlfriend blowing up your phone trying to get you to answer. Um, when that doesn't work, I will call your office to see if you're still there. I will call the bar to see if you're there. I will call all your friends to see if they've heard from you.
47:03
We then progress into checking pockets. I'm searching your car. I'm checking your social media feed.
47:11
I'm on your email, whatever, if I can get my hands on your phone, heck yeah, whatever I can do to try and piece together what you're doing when you're not with me, where I know you're safe and you're okay.
47:24
We have to learn again. Me doing all these things isn't stopping you from doing anything. It's not keeping you safe. And the hard part is, I've talked about this so you know, Drew went through treatment, got out. He's in sober living. He's doing great. Like to talk about it's the most, longest sobriety. He's strung together. He's working a program, he's going to meetings, all the things I am so uncomfortable because I don't have something to worry about that I start looking for stuff to worry about.
47:55
Now, mind you, I wasn't like digging through his phone and going through social media. Thank goodness I didn't on this front but, um, yeah, my brain is just working overtime. Is he going his meetings? Is he calling his sponsor? Is he? Is he paying his rent to do the orders? But all the things, like, it's, you get so used to doing those things and like, Thank God, I'm so much better about that stuff now. Like, if he gives me an answer about something, that's the answer. I have to accept it. I can't bully him into but I can't bully him into
48:27
giving me explanations or more answers.
48:31
But I have to make myself not even consider going there, because the second like you talked about how your brain can, just like, blow things up. I can spiral in a heartbeat. I can make up scenarios to worry about, things that have not happened, have never happened before, that will likely never happen, but I will make them up and they're completely true. And next thing you know, I'm in the corner, you know, eating my hair, crying so
48:56
but, but sometimes
48:59
I have to go hug and Chase, you know, big feelings, point, um, but yeah, so it's, it's just, it's so easy, like, even on this side of it, you cannot let yourself go back there, because it is very easy to slip right back into check in pockets, check in the car, all the things. Yeah. And again, what does it come down to? Fear?
49:20
Yeah. In control, we like control, and we have none, even though we don't want to admit but I have a question, another question that was, yeah, so good
49:31
you shine lights on so many, so many things,
49:36
is,
49:39
is the family side of it?
49:42
Is it like, god? Is it like? Is it the same way addiction is chronic, progressive and fatal? Is it the same way? Is it do you guys think of it in that, in that way? Well, yeah, um, because, like I said, we don't start out, you know.
50:02
Uh, digging into your entire life to figure out what you're doing, like, because initially, like, it's kind of, I'm picking up on something's going on. You're not coming home, like you're supposed to be, um, money's disappearing on the checking account. Um, I thought we had a full bottle of tequila at the bar, like, in the bar at the house, you know, just think you're noticing things are weird and not adding up. So you start trying to figure out, because we're great, like, great talk about So, yeah, I've my mentor, one of her, think my favorite things I've ever heard her say is, like, if you just gotten a bunch of people from our program when they were out looking for Bin Laden, you wouldn't need military force. You could have sent a group of us, and we'd have had them in half an hour. And no problem, we'd have found them and had them captured in half now,
50:51
find him real fast. Yes, yes. I can get through any door. I can hunt you down wherever you are. There's Yeah, we do
50:59
better work for
51:01
the FBI, trust me. But we don't start out there like we we learn these skills because, yeah, I feel like we need to, and we have to learn. We do learn. That's something I did learn. I don't have control as much as I think I do
51:17
that I have to let you live your life and trust that. Yeah, that higher power, or whatever that is, for you or for me, is taking care of you, because I can't do it, and if I let myself slip back into those behaviors, it's very easy to do. Is it chronic? Does it go away? No, I still. I'm just shy of three years in my program, and it's still there. Absolutely those thoughts still pop in my head. The difference is now is I'm able to go, ma'am, not your place, none of your business. So it'll be something that you're consistently learning to grow, and it'll change, and it'll become something that's yeah, like, I remember somebody at work not too long ago asked me if there's such thing as a relapse in our program? And I'm like,
52:04
we don't really use that term, but I went to my mentor. I'm like, is Is there such thing? Because I feel like, she's like, Yeah, absolutely. She's like, if I'm not doing what I do every day, if I don't get up, if I don't do my prayers, if I don't do my meditation, if I don't have that spiritual component to my life, and I am not working that program every day, every moment. And I don't just mean sitting in meetings or when talking to each other, it's every day, all day, no matter where I am. If I'm not working that program, I will slip right back into those old behaviors. And like I said, they don't those thoughts don't just not come anymore. They're there.
52:39
But I have the ability to go, nope. That's not your business. That's not your place. You get to accept the answer you were just given, and if they want to give you more information later, that's their decision, not yours. Is it fatal
52:54
for you? Maybe
52:58
that's a good answer, yeah, I don't know that. Well, you know, it could be, yeah, well, it very easily, it might not be fatal in the sense that it's going to kill you, like, like, chemical would kill you, but it's going to be fatal to your soul at a minimum, yeah. Well, and I imagine, you know, there, I could see how it could lead somebody to I can't live this life anymore. I can't watch my loved one suffer anymore. I would rather not be here than watch this anymore because they're not taking action to get themselves healthy. I can't be here and watch this anymore. Um, and also, I'm not joking. I
53:36
cannot tell you how many stories I've heard from people that are like, I have some plans for this person. Now, I never have those plans, but I will tell you,
53:46
there were periods of time with people in my life who were in addiction, and, you know, I talked about the scary phone call that you're always fearful of coming. There have also been times where I'm like, You know what, if that phone call came, at least
54:01
it would be over. Yeah, it would be done. I wouldn't have to worry. Yeah, there's some relief, right, right associated with it as well. Yeah, yeah, well. And you know, when you that word fatal, when I think about that, what, what I think about is just loss of life. And it might not be like literal loss of life. But you would certainly agree that philosophically, it you absolutely lose your life. You do yeah to the disease.
54:30
You know well, because I can tell you too, I
54:34
It's funny, because if I don't have to focus on myself, and all my focus is on somebody else or multiple somebody else's, it's funny how I forget I even exist. Yeah, I remember, two years ago, we were doing dirty Santa at work, and we all, I don't know if you know this, we all filled out these little questionnaires of like, what are your favorites of things, so that whoever drew you could kind of have some hints on I remember that. I think that might have been my first Chris.
55:00
Okay, company, yeah. So I went into a full on panic when I had to fill this thing out, because I didn't know the answers to any that's Oh. And I didn't even realize until I had to sit down and answer those. And I was like, I
55:13
don't know what my favorite coffee is. I don't know what my favorite restaurant. I have no idea. I haven't thought about me or what I like or what I want. In so long I've been so focused on everybody else, and ironically, any of the people in my life. I could walk into a restaurant and order their favorite meal, I could go to Starbucks and order their favorite coffee. I could walk into a department store and pick them an entire outfit that they would love. But I couldn't tell you any of that stuff about myself. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.