Hello and welcome to addiction truths brought to you by country road Recovery Center. I'm your host, Chris rosenbrin, in this podcast series, we delve deep into the profound impact of addiction on families. We share insights, experiences and advice on navigating this challenging journey before we begin a gentle reminder to our valued listeners, while we deeply appreciate your engagement and encourage you to reach out with questions, comments or concerns, please refrain from posting the names of family members who are currently in our program or who have been in the past. Your discretion helps us maintain the privacy and safety of all involved. We're here to offer support, answer questions and build a community of understanding and healing. So let's start the conversation and bring some truths about addiction into the life. What's up everybody? Welcome to this month's addiction truth podcast. I am accompanied by Derek and Charles gossick, really excited to have Charles on
Speaker 2 01:02
today. Charles, you don't know this, but you were one of the first people that welcomed me into the,
01:10
I guess, into the field of joint alcohol treatment during alcohol addiction treatment,
Speaker 3 01:15
I didn't know you didn't know that till this moment. Yeah, right now, yeah.
01:19
So it was one of
01:20
my we would all blame you. Okay,
Speaker 3 01:21
so that's, that's where it all started. If you have issues, you know the
Speaker 1 01:26
source? Yeah, that's right, no, I think it was a golf tournament we went to. Oh, yeah. I can't remember what golf tournament
01:32
was, yeah. So Bucha,
Speaker 3 01:37
yeah. I remember, I remember our first golf tournament. I don't remember who we were playing for. I remember allergies being in there. Yeah, did you go with those golf tournaments? Yeah, you got a lot of sneezing
Speaker 1 01:46
going on. I always come home Absolutely. Yeah, allergy wrecked. That was
01:51
a great day. Yes, and it's led here.
Speaker 1 01:53
Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, we'll blame you. Yeah, I'll take do you
Speaker 4 01:58
guys enjoy playing golf? Yeah? What do you just do you just do it? Because that's what a lot of people in recovery do. I've ended the professional I've
Speaker 1 02:05
enjoyed golf more as I've played it more so like I used to not be good at all. Used to suck. Every ball that I hit would go in the direction that I did not anticipate it to go. But I'm starting to get to where I can kind of put the ball, at least in the direction I want it. It always goes a little bit further than I anticipate, or a little shorter than I anticipate, but I think that's made it more enjoyable.
Speaker 4 02:32
Yeah, on today's podcast, yeah, my resentments with golf, yeah. I want
Speaker 1 02:37
to do a little introduction to let you guys know, if you have, if you are watching this podcast, you don't know who Charles is, I want to give you a little bit of insight of who Charles is and and how he is able to create such an impactful, such an impact on the field of addiction, and particularly helping folks recover from addiction. So Charles is the program director at Slate recovery. I'll let you talk about a little bit more about what the mission is of slate. I know for a fact the services that you guys offer are intensive outpatient programming, individual therapy, family recovery programming and purpose coaching and group sessions and workshops. The the focus is to your focus from what I've just learned about you in the past, and is to empower individuals to live courageously and authentically. And every time I've met, every time we've hung out, that is the that I feel, that passion. I feel what you you know that's something that you're always consistently radiating out of you. We did a personality test yesterday,
Speaker 3 03:49
right? Yeah, and what is yours? I'm the, so it's the Myers, Briggs Personality Test. And so I am the INFJ assertive type. So, yeah, the assertive advocate, the advocate, yeah. So a servant leader, yeah, it's an advocate type. And yeah, that sort of type, right? Yeah. I think that fits your personality, the idealist, you know, I think that we can be better as a world, and so I'm wired to help make that happen and try to cooperate with other people, places and things to make it so,
Speaker 1 04:24
yeah, let's jump into it. Man, 2014 is a date that sticks out to me. I want to learn a little bit more about about a little bit more about your background and kind of what has led you to pursue a career in this field.
Speaker 3 04:43
Yeah. So 2014 was probably when I launched out to become a certified coach, so I guess with the most expedient introductions. So, yeah. Charles Gossett, I'm a professional certified coach. Coach and I'm a certified professional recovery coach. Those are two different credentials, and we could go on about that so, but I'm I'm not a clinician. I'm non clinical, but I rub shoulders and work closely with clinicians often, and have for many years. Slate recovery just launched out this year, in June of 2024, and we're primarily an intensive outpatient program. Again, we can share more about that later. We provide those other services that that you mentioned, too. So yeah, but for me, on a on a personal and professional level, I guess first things first, I'm a person in long term recovery from alcoholism and substance use disorder, alcohol would have been my substance of choice in the end, and it probably was from the beginning, although I tried some others, I definitely had my share of cannabis and some other pills and psychedelics and some opioids, but it was really alcohol that my brain and body and whatever my preference is, definitely strongly towards alcohol. So really for me, mental health was primary before that, looking back, I had no idea. You know, as a 10 year old, you know that trauma was impacting me, I have a six out of 10 ACE score was her adverse childhood experiences. So that predisposed me, according to recent research, to a lot of stuff that did happen for me. Yeah, so mental health means, in my case, I really struggled with anxiety on a high level. I still have anxiety today by different ways of dealing with it, and then depression came shortly after that as like an 1112 year old, and I still experienced that from time to time. So by the time I was 15, and I had access to more than enough alcohol to produce intoxication, I'd never experienced that before, and that feeling of relief for me, first and foremost, it was like, and as they say in Alcoholics Anonymous, that sense of ease and comfort, I'm like, yeah, that feeling times 1000 because the symptoms of anxiety were temporarily reduced, and that sense of hopelessness or I can't get comfortable my own skin. A lot of us experience that was removed temporarily as well. And then, of course, the flood of dopamine and other chemicals that feel so good with alcohol, and to me, they felt exceptionally good. So that's my brief story with introduction to substance use and where it kicked off. I do have a story about addiction and recovery that we can get into later to want to Okay, so I get into it. I
Speaker 1 07:53
you know this, most of our viewers in this podcast are going to be the families of the loved ones that are struggling. You know, that's really what that's the we want to drive the ideas home in this podcast and say hey, and kind of normalize recovery. That's that's something that certainly wasn't talked about in my family. We did not talk about, we didn't really talk about addiction. And so when I came face to face with addiction, I didn't know what it was, and my family had a really hard time navigating
08:25
how to how to we
Speaker 1 08:28
recover. What does recovery can look like for a family member, you
08:33
know? So it's like, and
Speaker 1 08:35
that's that's something that's not easy to identify, because often times we can look at our loved ones who are struggling and say, hey, the problem lies there. They're the problem. And so can you? Can you kind of help us understand how addiction impacts the families that you work with?
08:55
Absolutely,
Speaker 3 08:56
yeah, and I'll, and I'll try to use some of my own personal story, and I have permission from my family to share certain aspects, so it won't be surprising. So yeah, absolutely. So from that moment, I'll just kind of pick up on threads of that earlier story. I pursued alcohol and then found cannabis shortly thereafter. Enjoyed that for a while, but it really didn't do what alcohol did, which was just get me out of that sense of desperation anxiety, where cannabis for me would like heighten, sometimes with the paranoia. And so I was really looking for something that would slow me down and get me out and meaning alter my consciousness enough to be removed from my sense of self and my mental health conditions in a way that that was relieving and empowering. So I pursued alcohol, for you know, pretty regularly, not every day, and not not all the time, and not in ways that were always legal. This was back in the you. The early 90s, when I really started 1990s so high school and so in those days, I would steal alcohol from local convenience stores. I would get folks that were older than me to go buy it. I was also doing other forms of theft. So there were other behaviors involved, you know, the anger, looking for a place to happen due to some trauma and some, you know, lack of ability to understand my emotions growing up, so I have troubling behaviors as well, so that, early on, started to impact my family in ways that weren't always understood. I have a very loving family. I love my family very much. We weren't perfect, and the family that I've raised with my wife were not perfect either. And so there were challenges, and some of those challenges I didn't understand or know what to do with. And so there's no blame there, but I had some things to learn about that with living and coming into recovery, especially so in our family, recovery wasn't spoken about. Addiction wasn't really spoken about, although there were a couple of family members where alcohol use, and every once in a while, drug use would come up and be talked about. But it wasn't transparent. It wasn't a, I would say, a regular conversation that's just like, how's the weather? And by the way, you know, so and so is in detox today. We didn't really talk about that, although, as I've grown alcoholism, substance use disorder and mental health challenges are on both sides of my family very immediately and extending outward, and they're also within my wife's family. So it's all around me, and it always has been,
11:43
does that Sorry, can I jump in? I
11:45
want please? Yeah,
Speaker 4 11:49
a super good to see you, man. Good to see you too. Charles and I have been friends for a long time. We've done podcasts together before. Yep, I'm excited about slate and the things that you guys are doing. So it's all this great Synology, yeah, does that worry you? You were talking about your family histories, your wife family histories, obviously, your history. Does that bring any fear into the mix or into your marriage for your children and the either the potential or the risk maybe that they now face because of generational backgrounds. Yes,
Speaker 3 12:26
it does most directly that does produce fear or concern. It can be labeled differently because I watched through that fire of fear and terror and oh no, all of that. But what we did early on in our living situation. So skipping ahead, just part of the story where I did find recovery. That was ultimately in 2006 in February. So I've celebrated this past February, 18 years this continues to be Thank you. Yeah, very grateful. That's where new life, or maybe life, for the first time, really started for me. My wife has her side of that story too, right? So briefly, some of the impact created later on. So that was parents and I also have a sister that were impacted by some of these dynamics early on. There's more there, but early on was that part of that story skipping ahead to where my wife had experienced, distress, concern, fear, terror, confusion, love was there too. She didn't know what addiction was or what what alcoholism was, but she caught on. We caught on together that something was wrong, but I was slow in the denial phase, and really not, because it was still doing something for me, and my brain was probably hijacked by that need, that craving for alcohol, because I've done it so often. I got used to living with it for so many years, and so there's science to back that up. It's not necessarily that I wanted to keep drinking alcoholically. It's just like this is what had happened, that's part of substance use disorder, but I had gone to therapy through an addictions counselor early on recommended. Aa, I tried it didn't like it didn't resonate with it. We continued on in our marriage. At that point, we were married and no kids in the equation yet, and and we started having our daughters when we have two daughters, and they were very young, and my wife started, like getting more serious. The consequences of my drinking were more serious, and there's lots to share, but just understand there's consequences, like not being able to go to work, an argument the night before that, I couldn't remember a hole in the wall that I don't know how it got there. And just the sense from really a caring person, my core sense of self is very caring, and so when I experienced those consequences, it was absolutely debilitating, like I can't believe that I said those things to this person. That's all she wants to do is help me. That's never what I had in mind. So just the. Scrubbing some of those dynamics to answer your question. So what my wife, Christy, what she started doing back in the day she had two kids at home. I wasn't able to be as helpful as I wanted to be. I did. I was helpful, but I would drink, and then I couldn't be, you know, I was, I was out with alcoholism, drunk, drunkenness. And so she started attending Al Anon meetings online in chat rooms back in the day with the dial up modems. Yeah, exactly. So I know this was like, this was the mid to late 90s, early 2000s right? So really late 90s, early 2000s that we're talking about now. So I skipped some years, but yeah, so she started learning about family systems and alcoholism, how it was impacting her, and getting that experience strength and hope from other folks. If you don't know what Al Anon is it, that's support for friends, family and loved ones of folks like me that have alcoholism or substance use disorder, that's where you can get support for yourself. It's one place to go. She was going there and connecting with other wives and other folks that could relate. She's like, Oh, I get it. I didn't know this was going on. She got a therapist, she got a sponsor. She was working the Al Anon steps. I was trying. I ended up going to to rehab residential at Valley hope. Once had a great experience, cushion in cushion here in Oklahoma. Don't remember having a robust treatment plan at that time, and if I did, I don't know that I followed it. It was aa in therapy. I didn't have intensive outpatient. There wasn't access at that time that I remember, that was in 2005 so I couldn't maintain my sobriety. But my wife on the family side, still had access to support. She did not let up on her Al Anon, she was still she could see a therapist when she needed to, she hadn't got sponsor and and parents and loved ones, she had a safe space, because I did a lot of my drinking at home, and so that part of my story is super hard to tell. I always feel the emotions of it, because you get depression, you get high dosage of antidepressants and whiskey on top of it, and it's not good. It's scary behavior that that I never wanted to express and have involved in my life. And so that's emotion coming through which I should share,
17:30
right? Bringing up a really good Go ahead, yeah,
Speaker 3 17:33
it's a long answer. I haven't forgotten your question. That's the family.
Speaker 4 17:37
Well, I told I told my clients all the time, checking even after 18 years, is part of what you're feeling that I think perhaps one of the hardest things about recovery is both coming to the realization and finding acceptance and ownership, and the fact that our alcoholism or our substance use disorder created a dynamic where we perpetrated harm on people that we love, and that's like a that's a place that, if people can't find a way through, I think, is a real big setup for continued chain relapse, and even after 18 years, it's still the feelings of some of that are still really evident,
Speaker 3 18:22
right? And to that point, that's why I self expressed like I should have that feeling right, that that belongs, not from a place of shame. I do feel the remorse of it still right. So I accept what I've done, and I also accept that alcoholism is a disorder that's way bigger than my best choices, right? So the the choices that I made while under the influence of alcoholism or untreated alcoholism, even when I had brief stretches or stents of sobriety, which was three months over 15 years, it's my mom's stretch, those weren't my best choices and and since then, over the past 18 years, I've done a lot to reconcile with my family and to to call back. Is what that means, to circle people up the best I know how, from my side of the equation, to make amends, to make things right. One of my biggest amends is to learn to be who I really am, so that I'm not who I'm not, yeah. And this personality wise, that makes total sense. That's being an integrity with my personality type. So I owe it to everybody in my life to be who I am, because that's what I long to be, yeah. And then as I am, then I can be my best self, like with my wife, Christy, who may watch part of this, but she hears my voice a lot, and I give her credit right there. You know, my last drinking episode was at home, and I went into a blackout and a red out, which means I don't remember 98% of what happened, and the red out is rage. You. So unfortunately, I was expressing rage in the house with a three year old and a less than a one year old daughter, and that I still feel that as well, because that was scary and and, but she left. She had built empowering, safe places that she could go, and she went to called a friend, they told her to go to the YMC shelter where we were living then. And she did, and that was the right decision. That's a hard part of my story to share, but that was the right decision. And she stayed safe with the with the girls, and I was left there with me and tin cans and bottles and nothing. And so I called this was a year after my residential treatment at Valley hope. I went back to valley hope because I don't know what else to do. They weren't wrong. I need to learn something else. Yeah, and it caught on from there. Another great boundary example. We'll talk about boundaries, but where my wife was living her recovery is that she was keeping our girls safe, making sure that she could make it with them, and her with or without me. She told me that later, and really living her best life, you know, to that she knew with pain and sadness of not being together because we were separated. When I finished my residential stint this time, I said, Okay, I'm done. I'm, you know, coming home. And she said, I'm not ready for you. And so parents and loved ones, every situation is unique, but this is where my wife is absolutely a rock star in our family's life, and I give her credit for changing the dynamics of our whole family system right here, she said no, and the reason she said no was not to be mean. It wasn't to be vengeful, it wasn't hateful. She was hurt. She didn't want to be around me as much, but she didn't hate me. The reason she did that was it was a healthy decision for her and the girls, and she thought maybe it could help me by us not being back together in the same house. And she said no, but I found a sober living with somebody that you know that's running it if you want to go. So she set boundaries, she set limits. She created an alternate path of recovery if I took it, but it was up to me to make that choice, and I barely said, Yes,
Speaker 1 22:26
Charles, do you think that your wife would have had the the knowledge and the strength to do that, had she not been getting plugged in to the that her her own recovery program?
Speaker 3 22:35
Absolutely not. And she's told me that because we didn't know what it was so talking about we she didn't know what alcoholism was. She didn't understand how it impacted her as a person, her role as a spouse, her role as a mom, and how her friendships had had been diminished. I was on her mind all the time in obsessive ways. She was always looking at the bank account for that one total of a pint of whiskey or the 12 pack of beer, and then asking me if I had been drinking, she stopped those behaviors and learned that that didn't work, that those were actually contributing to unhealthiness for herself and potentially for me giving me excuses to drink. Oh, why are you always asking me about alcohol? Fine, I'll go get drunk. That's That's how alcoholism works in the family system.
Speaker 1 23:30
I have a second question that comes along the same lines. We're about to jump into the beginning of your
Speaker 3 23:37
recovery story, right? It's the good part.
Speaker 1 23:41
What was the home like? Because there's, I think a common misconception is, I can't recover unless my loved ones recovered. But it sounds like your wife is well on her way to recovery. I'm sure at times it's very difficult for her to maintain that but, but sounds like she was really getting plugged in. What was the home like with with her in recovery and you not, and not in recovery yet. Does that make sense? It does a little bit. But I want to take a little deeper dive into what the home environment really looked like with her in recovery and you not, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 24:13
And I want to remember Derek your question too about my thoughts about the future family. And yeah, absolutely. So when, when Christie entered her recovery from the Al Anon side, she started learning about CO dependency and about enabling, maybe some enmeshment, and about behaviors that for her may have been contributing to her own mental well being her own energy, her own relationships in her life, but also our relationship dynamic in our marriage in ways that were unhealthy, and she started addressing those through therapy and the 12 steps and sponsorship and great friends that were supportive and church, a lot of church support that I didn't know about she was doing. What she needed to do for herself. And so first and foremost, that's what I would recommend to any family member or friend you know, do it for you, learn about this thing and take some steps. So when she started doing that, changes that I know. This one that I tell everybody is I remember coming home from work, and so yeah, by the end of my drinking, it was I could get through a day because I needed to my profession. I had a public position, and so I couldn't be drunk all day, you know, I didn't know who I talked to or when, you know, might be in the news or whatever local news. So I would go right from work to the liquor store and a different one every day, so they wouldn't know me, right? And go get enough alcohol for what I thought would be enough for that night, which usually wasn't towards the end. That's even worse, but I would slam a pint of whiskey on the way home, and it took me about 20 minutes or 30 minutes, and for me, we're all different, but that was enough alcohol to rock my world about 30 minutes after I got home. So I was literally bringing a really high amount of alcohol in my system to my doorstep almost every day. And so what changed is, is my wife would stop asking me, did you drink? Did you make it? She's looking for the signs and being hyper vigilant and, you know, avoidant and worrying and just hovering. Those were some of her behaviors, because she was concerned and obsessed about this, this illness and this part of me that was suffering, but she also wanted to be safe. So what she did instead was, I remember she met me at the door one day, and I remember opening the door and she said, Did you make it? And that meant, did, did I stay sober on the way home? It was rough, you know? And I said, Yeah, but I'm probably going to need to go out and get some beer tonight. That was my best answer, terrible answer and whiskey just coming off of my breath. And I remember the look this one, this one hurts too. I can still feel this one, but it's a good pain to remember. I remember a feeling like she said, sorry. She said, Okay. And then she opened the door and let me in, and that was it. And she disengaged when in the other room. And to my memory, it was either right then or later, she went and joined an Alden on meeting online, and didn't tell me she was taking care of herself and she was getting healthy, and she was showing me, subconsciously, I didn't know, right, but looking back, I'm like, Oh, that was a moment she was showing me what healthy life could look like from the other side. So from that point, there were many other examples that are similar, where she would just disengage. She would leave the house with the girls because I was bringing it home. Yes, she would go to meetings, not always let me know. So a lot of that disengagement, and really I call it today, and Al Anon calls it detachment with love. So she wasn't arguing with me, she wasn't fighting, she wasn't cowering, she wasn't overly avoiding. She was really leaning into her own recovery with or without me, until she could make a decision that was best for her and the girls and maybe me, which ultimately she did.
Speaker 1 28:24
Definitely want to get to your question. I have one more question about this, because this is a really fascinating thing. Do you how much do you think that can How much do you think her detachment with love and the boundaries that she was clearly beginning to set with you and the the disengaging behavior, where she would fight you. How much do you think that played into you? You getting your getting ready to step into recovery yourself.
Speaker 3 28:53
I give everything that I've been through, the address my addiction. I give it credit, but to my awareness. I give the most credit there to where Christy really started to understand this thing. That was the first thing she did, what is this? What is going on, what's happening to my husband, what's and then she learned, well, wait a minute, what's happening to me. And then what can I do about that? And then she was taking action around that, from church, 12 steps, reflection, friends, etc, and new behaviors emerged. And I'm telling you, subconsciously, I was like, Well, I guess it's just me, me in the bottle tonight, which is totally miserable, but there's no one to blame. So what she was doing for me, and this why give her credit she was allowing me to experience the consequences, the loneliness, the desperation of that honestly, in a very loving way. It probably wasn't perfect. There were some other behaviors too, but I give her credit for those really solid behaviors, and the consistency setting those boundaries was gut ring. Teaching for her, watching me die from alcoholism, which was happening. I was very suicidal for years, very and homicidal for about a year, and so good things were not ahead for me at all. I can relate to people that have been through some serious stuff, because I've had it in my head for periods of time. So, yeah, it really allowed me to sit with this and think, you know what? I've had access to some care before, to some solutions. Let me try again. And really, there was this point where a friend in AA had said, Charles, there's nobody left, really, for you. You know, at this point you can come to meetings, you know, and your sponsor's still with you, but, you know, he's not even sure if you're going to make it, but, but you're going to come to this point where, you know you don't want to get sober, you don't want to get drunk, you don't want to live, and you don't want to die, and you don't care that. You don't care. And he said, I know, because I've been there, and I know the path that you're on really severe alcoholism and and I got to that point when she left with the girls, and it wasn't poor me. I was way past, oh, poor pitiful me. I'm just all I was already alone, yeah, even with a loving wife at home because of my addiction. So all of that, those boundaries and those new behaviors in her way of taking care of herself, staying safe, detaching with love, man, that was the missing piece, if nothing else, that really allowed me the chance at a full recovery. Knowing it's up to me to figure this out, and I'm gonna have to lean on other people, except for my loved ones. For the first time,
Speaker 1 31:46
I've never, I've never heard anybody put it quite that way before. Charles has very painted a very clear picture.
Speaker 3 31:53
Yeah, for sure, pretty serious about it. Man, giving her credit, you know, I've learned how to tell her story with her permission so I can understand and working with families.
Speaker 4 32:03
Yeah, I wrote this down earlier, just as you were talking like I think your whole story really speaks to this, that I hope what families take away from our conversation today is understanding and families and people in recovery is that family recovery is really a collaborative effort between all those involved. You know the idea that your wife has to have the honesty as you're coming out of treatment to say, I'm not ready, let's collaborate on a plan that's going to work and set us up to succeed. That in the family, it's not one person that gets to dictate. This is how this is going to go for everybody. I'm not a treatment. I'm coming home. You know that we have to work together to come up with a plan and a system that's going to allow us to get from point A to A healthy point B, which is where you guys right now, right?
Speaker 3 32:51
Yeah, that's a super important point. Thanks for sharing that. Because it was collaborative. You picked up on that thread. It wasn't one person in in my family, my mom and dad were involved too. They cared about they were worried about their son. I have a sister. She was worried about about me, and we're supportive of of Christy, whatever her decisions were, but they're worried about their son. That's a different story, right? But, but, yeah, it was collaborative. I did have caring family members who who were trying to work together with me, and it maybe even without me, but not at my expense, and not just to say there's nothing we can do. Just go figure it out or not, if you live or die, whatever. It wasn't uncaring. It wasn't cleaving like just you're gone. I'm just going to cope with this by just pretending you don't exist and whatever happens, okay, I'll deal with it. I was really included in care of my wife's decision making. It was hard, and she had to do things that she told me later. Those are the hardest things I ever had to do in my entire life, and nothing she signed up for, like, collaboratively, like as a family unit, I'm able to understand today, like the blame for alcoholism. I never chose alcoholism. I did drink right, and I liked it, and I went back to it, and I went back to it, even though there were consequences. But if you start to look clinically, at least the definition of alcoholism, those describe the stages of the affliction. That's what we all do, and most of us never signed up for that. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be this person, but maybe with a different story than I'm sharing now, but this is the one I have. So, yeah, absolutely. Collaboration is key. Each person taking a healthy role is really ideal.
34:46
Charles just puts it so eloquently.
34:47
He's good dude,
34:49
yeah, Charlie, yeah. I
Speaker 5 34:51
appreciate that. Just taking it all in because, I mean, I got, I just celebrated four years, not too long ago, yeah, and
Speaker 1 34:58
37:15
yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3 37:18
I appreciate you sharing that you know, not that that needs a response, but just a thought that came into my head, that community piece, absolutely everybody in this room is part of my community. You know, recovery, when it when it really goes deep and changes your life, creates change, causes you to change. It really alters your values and sense of like relationship or connection with other people, places and things, when it when it's good, and so many more people that that I may have not had in my life or seen in the same way, with the same level of strength and connection I do today. I value people so much more. Part of that is my personality, but part of my personality too is like, if they're not ideally the best person, they're out of my life, I don't do that as much. I do it very rarely. Today, that aspect of my personality really isn't very active. Some of that's developmental in age also, but I just value human beings much more, just for who and what they are, not what they could do for me. Although I value that, I value more what they do for themselves and others and what they might do for me and with me, because I just like to watch things go now. I like to watch people be who they are and have the fullest experience possible. I don't know that I ever would have come to that frame of reference and that perspective about life without recovery. And so community is a huge part of that, because I'm always hearing diverse perspectives, whether that's politics, which are obviously fresh on all of our minds. But tell me something new, right? Of course, it's fresh, but people are inherently different anyway, no matter what we believe we just are. So it's learning to understand those. And then, if you go that next step, appreciate even because it makes your life easier when you can, you resist life so much less. You can see things so much more clearly by just understanding, oh, you're different from me. And I've, I've been trying to change it this whole time, maybe if I stop doing that, and that's called working the Al Anon 12 steps, which I've also done, which I started working, you know, with sponsor ease, I'm like, God, so this is what it was like to live with me. I know you're using Stop telling me you're not. You know the frustration and the boy, they really let me down. I'm telling my wife at home and later recover like the second year, first, second year. There wasn't an example in sober living. We were talking again by phone, and. And I let her know a friend had relapsed in the house, and we were mowing lawns together because I had lost my career job. So nothing wrong with mowing lawns, but that was, that's what I was doing, instead of being a professional forester, because I lost that career due to alcoholism. So we're doing that, and his behavior had noticeably changed, sunglasses and and bandana around the neck, and it's probably using cocaine again, which that happens, right? But to me, I've never been impacted on this side of addiction that way. So notice, because I was like, solid and recovering, life is getting good, and at least was talking to my wife, and nothing else was going right, but I was sober and sort of talking to my family, really unhealthy, smoking a lot of cigarettes and mowing lawns, that's all I was doing, going to meetings, and he had relapsed. My friend had and came to me with this, hey, hey, Charles, how have you been? And we need to talk recovery. I know it's been a while, because I hadn't seen him in a minute, so no disrespect or offense, but he was exhibiting the signs of relapse and substance use, and I was telling my wife about them, like I'm not going to be able to mow lawns with them anymore. I don't know what to do. I just feel so sad, which I was right, that's me. And she said, she paused, and I feel this one too there, yeah. It's like, she said, she pauses. She said, sounds like you love an alcoholic. And I'm like, Man, that one hit me. It still hits me right in the heart, yeah, and in the head, you know? And I need to share that with you all, with the listeners, because she was right, and she was speaking truth, yeah, to somebody who didn't get it for a lot of years, and she needed to express that, and I needed to hear it. So part of my amends is hearing that from my wife and saying, oh, oh, I didn't understand. And that that level of denial and not understand, that's part of the affliction. So, you know, the final frontier on all that breath of air that I just shared, really, I heard this shared in a meeting from a wise aa member, the final frontier in recovery is family, yeah, and that looks different, whether that's family of origin or family of choice, or whatever, you know, making peace with other people that are close to you and figuring that out, that that's where it's at the end. Yeah, man, I love
Speaker 4 42:25
after 18 years of sobriety, Charles, that you're in a place where you can still feel the freshness of certain moments of clarity about your story, and that those haven't become stale. And I think that that is what gives you power. Is not the right word, not power, like power, but interpersonal power, right? I think that's what gives you recovery speed. Yeah, right, like it's gas in your tank. Yeah? That you. Often times I see people who like their past has become just like kind of stale, and it's lost some of the punch, not in a like, the punch is good, if you were saying that, like, hey, I need that reminder. I need that that sobriety of emotion that actually realigns me and retunes me towards gratitude and towards acceptance and towards all these principles that we really like to teach and so I love that that feels so fresh for you. Yeah? In spite of that, it kind of sucks too, you know, yeah, but yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 43:35
I appreciate that, you know. And it's my it's my responsibility. Honestly, as I see, this is the idealist temperament, right at its best, is I need that to be my best self, honestly, right? So we're all different, different personality types, or how would we view our different ways that we're human? But I need that uniquely for who I am, to have access to that, because I do care. You know, compassion has taken the place of rage. Wisdom has taken the place and not my wisdom, but just general wisdom, has taken the place of denial or not understanding and and love has taken the place of judgment or or hatred, you know. So I still have those other words. You know, those aren't gone either, but my ultimate responsibility is to is to truth and to to being real with life and with myself. And what I've discovered is I'm able to do that. That's the inverse of addiction. Invert addiction is like creating an alternative reality every day. And it's like, Well, no wonder I was miserable. I'm wired to align with what's real and then to make that better. And so I was uniquely despairing for about 16 plus years, most days for that reason alone. And so part of it's just who I am, with or without recovery. I but I need to be able to have access to that in order to keep my recovery fresh, because I know that that's absolutely true. If I just discount or diffuse or all the other words that we use to forget, if I don't keep those experiences fresh, then I'm not this person today. So it's so valuable to remember, because as long as I have the courage to go there every single effing time, then I get to benefit from it every single time, and then other people, by extension, benefit, meaning, that's a poetic way of saying, as long as I can go to those hard places and the really positive places equally, then I live a richer, fuller life, and other people might too.
Speaker 1 45:51
That's good. Want to make sure that we're respecting your time. I want to, I want to lead us out with this question, what
46:00
would you say to
Speaker 1 46:03
to a family that may be watching this or a loved one or friend that is recognizing themselves in this conversation hasn't quite taken the steps is ready to and they're about to take this step into this journey. What would you say to that person,
Speaker 2 46:21
what kind of, what kind of motivating things would you say?
Speaker 3 46:26
Yeah, you know, first and first and foremost, if there's folks that are struggling on this end of addiction, reach out to these guys right here. Reach out to country road. And if you're out of state or whatever, you can still come here. Highly recommend you. And authentically, I do. We work together closely. I believe in what y'all do and who you are, but for family members, I absolutely, highly recommend, if anything like from our conversation days resonated with you and sparked you a little bit, then learn more. That's what I always suggest. Start there, learn more about substance use disorder, alcoholism, what it is and then how it impacts families, including you, a lot of family members will figure out how it impacts others and their loved one and other family members, but they won't look inward and apply that knowledge to themselves. So understand not only how your loved one's behavior has impacted you that matters, but how alcoholism and addiction itself. There's lots of great resources that that you may not know about, so please feel free to reach out to any one of us, or just search online learn more about it. Second of all, determine the difference between substance use disorder and the individual who has it. And by that, I mean just understand that your loved one, your son, your daughter, husband, wife, whoever it may be, they may be experiencing substance use disorder. But that's not all of who they are. It may describe them mostly these days. They may have changed dramatically over the years from who you knew back when, but that person is still underneath there. That's one of the things that my wife did. She she was able to see me underneath in brief moments of clarity. They were brief where she could see me underneath the alcoholism, and that gave her a little bit of hope that maybe I could, I could do this. But it also importantly for herself, said, Oh, he's not himself because of the alcohol. He's not that person. That's what's creating this change. So she started to learn that there's a difference between Charles and Charles experiencing alcoholism. So second and then third, start to set boundaries. And if you don't know what those are, ask anybody in this room go look online. How do I set boundaries around my loved one? Please learn that in common language today, boundaries or they can mean something like, you know, I do what I want to do, don't tell me what to do. How I treat you depends on how you treat me. Okay, none of that really applies. By boundaries, I mean, how do you understand your needs and your values on a personal level, and how do you communicate with others about those needs and those values in a way that's respectful and clear? So if your loved one is constantly getting money from you or taking money from you and you don't value that, that's not okay. It's important for you to learn what to do about that, to understand, first of all, that that is a value and you don't want that to happen, how to communicate it and how to back it up. That could be a whole series of conversations. But really those three things, learn more about addiction, substance use disorder, be able to tell the difference between your loved one and their disorder. And then start to learn what boundaries, healthy boundaries, are, and how to set them with your loved one. It's good, incredibly
Speaker 1 50:06
well said, Charles. You're a rock star. Appreciate it. Very thankful to have you in my life. Likewise, yeah, yeah. Very thankful. Gary. Got anything else you want to put the cherry on
Speaker 4 50:17
top? No man, I was just gonna tell Charles thanks for being here, yep, yeah, great to
Speaker 3 50:22
be here. Liz, pleasure, I will do a plug for slight recovery. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. So slate recovery is where I work now. So program director, I'm a certified professional recovery coach and a certified life coach. We have licensed alcohol and drug counselors. We have coaches on staff. We do intensive outpatient which is usually like after residential treatment, and something called partial hospitalization. We offer that in person and virtually. So in person in Oklahoma City, three days a week, the in the evening, virtually around the state, anywhere in Oklahoma in the morning or in the evening, three days a week, we do individual therapy, so counseling for mental health and or substance use. We do individual coaching, and depends on when this comes out, but we're going to start our first recovery coaching group mid November, so that'll be coming up soon as at the time of this recording, and then we also do a group, some workshops and that kind of different so we contract for some services and things like with OSU OKC and some others. So anyway, however, we can be helpful through through our services, or collaborating and referring and helping you to learn more about country road, or anyone else glad to
Speaker 1 51:38
do it? Yeah. Yeah. You have an incredible team, such an amazing team. I've been working with the with Sierra and Ray for a while now. And the initial conversation I had with Ray, we were laughing about this yesterday. We were sitting at a Starbucks, and man, we just got, I think, two hours passes by, and we just, you know, we're just in there talking about consciousness. And I think aliens came up in the conversation somewhere.
52:09
I'm sure they should
Speaker 4 52:10
in any good conversation, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 52:13
This is just a wonderful team. The passion is there and it come and it shows in your work.
Speaker 3 52:18
Well, thank you. We are, you know, pretty intentional about what we do. We're purpose centered, values based, organization and employee first, and we see the humanity and everyone that comes through our doors, that's through our staff training and through our values orientation. So we like to see people for who they are, and give them the best opportunity for recovery through the services we offer. So anything we can do, awesome,
Speaker 2 52:45
cool. Thanks everybody for listening to this month's episode, and we will be back See you later. You.