00:15
Hey everyone, welcome to the addiction truths podcast. We are in the third episode of the year. Super exciting stuff. I am joined by Derek and Kathy. Hello everybody. This week, we're going to be, I guess, this month, it's not a weekly thing. It's a monthly thing. This month, we're going to be talking the question of the episode is, is it addiction? Is it sometimes it's hard to tell, you know, our loved ones can generally be pretty good at manipulating and lying and stuff. And so it becomes, you know, they get caught act or whatever. And it's, it's hard to, it's hard to pinpoint what's actually going on. I figure we'll start with, we'll start with what, what is even addiction. So I pulled up, I looked on Google. What's the definition of drug addiction? Drug or alcohol addiction is a chronic disease characterized by drug seeking and use that is compulsive or difficult to control, despite harmful consequences, brain changes that occur over time with drug use challenge and addicted person's self control and interfere with their ability to resist intense urges to take drugs. That's a real complicated one. That's a complicated I mean, it encompasses it. But, you know, I've heard addiction characterized as something that is. The saying was, addiction is the opposite of addiction is connection. You know, I've heard that before. I've heard that that drugs and alcohol aren't really the problem of the person struggling, that the problem is themselves. And I think all of these can be true in their own category. But I'm going to, I'm going to ask, since you're the, since you're the master of this all, yeah, what's your definition
02:06
Master is an oversell? Certainly an oversell. I mean, I think that when we when we think about what is addiction there, is really, and this is like, I think the God's honest truth, like, at least four, maybe five different ways you can answer that question, and they're all right, yeah, right. Because the the thing that we learn, I think the quickest about addiction, I think thing that family members figure out the quickest about addiction is that it's really complex and complicated, and there's a ton of nuance. And you can actually have a couple of different approaches to how you define it, and they all be accurate, and they all be right at the same time. And so you can look at something like the American Society of Addiction Medicine, and what their definition of addiction is, which is really comprehensive, and, you know, it's a, it's a chronic, progressive disease of the brain that includes this, this, you know, we can have all of that from, like, a medical standpoint. I think you can look at, you know, I was, I just quickly jotted down, like things that I thought about. Like, you could look at this and answer it like from a chemical perspective, like, what does it mean to be addicted to a chemical so that when your body doesn't have it, you get physically ill? And we measure addiction in those terms, what does it mean to have this addiction definition that is based more about how chemicals are psychoactive, and change the way we feel, and change the way our brain chemistry works, in terms of our dopamine and the our and our, you know, hedonic set point and those things. So in that sense, there's a real emotional addiction that happens during drug use. You can look at things like the hijacked brain, you know, platform, where it's like, hey, addiction is a brain disease, and there's limbic system, override of the front prefrontal cortex and all of those things that happen in decision making. And then you can look at like, like, you could pull out the DSM five, which is what we would use to diagnose somebody with addiction, and look at the 11 criteria that are in there and say, check the boxes. And all of those are right, and they're all very different. But then, when I started thinking about it, I was like, does it matter like, like, at the bottom, like, human level, does it matter if it's an addiction or if it's not addiction? Because if you've got a compulsive problem and all all expanded outside of what we do specifically here, right, because we deal with compulsive, addictive drug and alcohol related behaviors. But if you expand that out, if you've got an a compulsive, quote, unquote addiction to chemicals, to gambling to pornography. Be the sex to relationships, to whatever that is. Doesn't really matter what the definition is. What matters is this thing is causing me problems socially and emotionally and potentially physically and spiritually. And that's an issue, whether it's definitionally addiction or not. If it's a problem, it's a problem, and it needs to be addressed with some sort
05:22
of solution. You bring up such a good point, because particularly with opiates, we all know, if you go to we've all heard the stigma around opiates, the dangers of opiates, and if you go to the hospital and you have a surgery, they're going to put you on a high powered opiate, you have the potential to get physically addicted. But there are people like Cathy, for example. Cathy, you are not an ad. We're not an ad, yeah. But um, say Cathy were to go have a surgery on opiates after the Sir, after the pain's over, she's going to be able to put that aside. Maybe you do have some of that, the physical aspects of addiction, the body became somewhat dependent on that, but you don't have the mental component that goes along with it. However, if that were to be me in your shoes, then I would be, you know, I have the potential to struggle a little bit differently, where I start thinking about that medication on a day to day basis. Even after I'm taking it, I'm coming up with excuses on why I still need it or whatever. And so you're right. There are so many different ways to categorize addiction, and all of them are correct. All of them are correct, but that's what. But I'm, you know, I'm thinking as you're talking, how did, how is it affecting the people at home? You know, what's addiction look like to someone at home that looks like their loved one sitting on the couch all day, or having these massive anger outburst if you try to set boundaries, or it looks like them stealing from your purse, or it looks like, you know, it has all these different looks. It looks like weight loss. You know, these are the that's what addiction is in the home. It looks like a chaotic home.
07:07
Well, you know? And it's funny, because one of the biggest points of this podcast is to help family members understand what's going on with their loved ones, but also themselves, yeah, um, and we can get completely addicted to taking care, of trying to fix, trying to cure. What have you our loved one at the end of the day, like you said, it doesn't matter what boxes you're checking off, what categories somebody falls into, if your loved one isn't ready to even come to the realization and admit that they have an addiction, no matter what that family member is seeing, no matter what they're worrying about, no matter what you're doing, nothing's going to change on that front. And the hard part with us is we can actually become addicted to trying to fix you and take care of you. Yeah, um, I even remember, I think I've talked about this before, but I remember, after my cousin got sober, I was so and it wasn't just him. I've had different family members with addiction issues, and that takes a toll on you. After a while, you start living in this just heightened sense of, I gotta be ready because what's coming around the bin next. When phone call is coming, you know, make sure your money saved up, because you're going to need, you know, attorneys or bills or what have you um, and when everything calms down, it's really unnerving. And I found myself looking for stuff to worry about. I had no clue that I had fallen into an addiction of needing to make sure things are okay and manage all the things. So I remember like he got out of here. He came through here. You get out of here. He was living in sober living, and next thing you know, he's doing great. I'm not I'm at home. Going, did he pay his rent at the sober house? Did he remember to order his meds? Is he going to his meetings? Is he calling his sponsor? None of this is my business, but I am so addicted to try to keep an eye on things and make sure everybody's okay that I didn't, I forgot I am a person and have other things to tend to.
09:09
And, yeah, your own disease to worry about. Yeah, yeah. And it took me
09:13
a year and a half into his sobriety to realize, shoot, I'm not good, and it's harder, I think, for us, because we're not out, yes, we're out spending money on other people to fix the things, you know, we just go to our completely own different kind of crazy with it. And I think it's almost harder I can I'm not going to speak for you, but I've heard you talk about this, how miserable you were. You didn't want to be living the way you are anymore, but I think it's harder for the family side of it to even admit that things are wrong because you're you spent so long trying to hide it from the outside world, not let the people at church know what's going on, not let the people at your job or whatever, so it can take you us to a crazy place. Yeah,
10:00
this might feel a little meta for 730 in the morning. Sorry, as I'm just hearing you like I'm thinking about that, there's specific challenges for somebody that's chemically addicted, right? Because you're dealing with all of the functions of the disease, and dealing with the fact that, if that with some chemicals, if I stop using this, I'm going to experience physical withdrawal and be sick. You're dealing with cravings, and even in early sobriety and post you withdraw, and all of those things. And there's measurable medicine involved in that, which is a negative for the person going through it, but it's a positive in terms of identification that the problem is there, right? It makes it easier to identify that you have an opiate problem. If, when we take opiates away from it, you get sick, right? Yeah. But for family members, they're dealing with everything involved in their disease, but the symptoms of that aren't nearly as measurable and scientific. They're much more like based in our humanity and in our spirit and in all the things that's going on on the inside. And I think that's why it's complicated for families to identify that I've got money and stuff I've got to deal with because it's it's so much different in its appearance.
11:27
Well, in an arm, in our minds, we're just doing what you should do. You're taking care of your family, you're making sure your loved ones okay. And what's wrong with that? Yeah, right. Could that have that possibly be it's not a bad thing, but how could that possibly be harming me or anybody else, yeah,
11:43
or in what level does it become harming right? You know? And at what point in time did that switch from I'm doing the right thing to now I'm crossing boundaries. I'm setting boundaries with myself even, and I'm crossing those boundaries too. One of the questions that I thought of while we were talking was, what what causes addiction? I don't know that. And that's a that's like the if we could figure out what causes addiction all done, we wouldn't have jobs. We could get down to the very core of it. The reality is, I don't know. We don't know. I had a great home growing up. Mm, hmm, and, and, you know, it's something I struggled with when I got older, but, but more importantly, I guess the question is, because you have a very you have a great saying that goes along with this, I'm asking, what really causes addiction and the, what's the other side of it? What's the what's the saying that you guys have that
12:42
helpfulness is the sunny side of control. And it's funny, I I have a mentor, and I heard her speaking one day to a group of people, and she said that, and it was like somebody punched me straight in the stomach, because it never occurred to me that my trying to be helpful. At the core, base of it was me trying to control somebody else and something else. And it it was always coming from a genuinely good place, but you don't realize how harmful that actually can be. I also, like a friend of mine, I remember her talking one day, and she was saying that we don't always realize as well that our being helpful could actually be insulting, that you're giving this your loved one, the impression that they're not smart enough or capable above capable enough, capable enough to handle something on their own, whereas in our minds, we're just, I'm just being helpful, so you don't have to stress over this and
13:45
but sometimes, on another level, you actually believe they're not capable, because that's and to be fair, that's been the pattern, yes, like, they haven't really demonstrated much capability in some parts of life. So it's like, right? You know? It's like, oh, sometimes I actually believe you're not capable, and that's why I'm trying to be healthy. Trying to be helpful. But I don't want to, I don't want to boil it down to the rigorous honesty to say, Yeah, I don't believe you can do this, so I'm going to try to help you along the way. Well,
14:12
no, because that's just, that's just going to lead. Here's how our minds work. I can't be 100% honest with you about why I'm doing things all the time, because it's going to cause a fight. Yeah, get you upset. Get you set. Get you angry. And what does that lead to, drinking drugs and the big spirals and blow ups again? And we are doing everything in our control that we could possibly can to we are always trying to keep that from happening, stop you from doing that.
14:39
Underneath all that Kathy for family members, is there a thread of fear in terms of, I don't want to do anything that's going to cost them to spin out that like, what would I do if I did something and we had a fight and then they overdosed, right? Or something like that. That fear that. I'm gonna cause something. Yeah, that's a great, really bad to happen. Well, you
15:03
know, it's funny, because also, I'm telling you, our brains, you don't want to go in there. They're They're fun, because there's a side of you where I can't I'm gonna guess you. You, when you were in your addiction, you were confronted a few times about what you were doing. Were you ever like, Yo, I'm drinking, I'm doing the drugs.
15:22
No, I'm not taking no.
15:24
But you know what I want to do? I want to shove that beer in your face and go see you are. Look, I found needles. Look, I found a pipe. Like, it's half of our brain is, like, You're lying. I'm going to prove it, because what you're putting me through? Yeah, there's also the other side of us. That's exactly what you just said. I am not going to confront you. I'm not going to pick a fight, because what if, what if you get mad? What if you get sad? You're going to storm out of the house. I know where you're going. You're going straight to liquor store or your dealer. What if you get an accident on the way? What if you run into the wrong kind of people at the dealer's house and you get shots? What if you od in on the side of the road in your car? There's always that weird fine line we're walking. Of Is this the day I confront you, or do I continue to just keep an eye on things so I can keep you safe? Yeah, the hard part is, is we don't realize we can't actually do that,
16:15
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just like and just like, it's something that I didn't, I didn't cause in my life, and I can't point to any specific event that caused it in my life. It's certain it was not my family's fault. Yeah, you know, they didn't cause this to happen to me. It was just something that over time, I guess it was a snowball, you know, what started as a small, little snowball at the top of the hill for fun, possibly, yeah, it gets pushed down, and as it spins, as it goes, it collects more snow. Yeah,
16:51
I think that's one of the harder things for families and for people suffering from substance use problems, is that there's sometimes. There are cases where it's like, there it is. That's where it started. This is what, you know, yeah, but that's really the minority, you know. The majority of it is, is a big question mark, similar to, why anybody has problems with anything in life, like, Why do I have relationship problems? How did that get going? You know? And I think the process of recovery, and this is why I hope people understand that that sending your loved one to a 90 day treatment program doesn't fix anything. Like, if that's the expectation changes, right? Like, you're going to be really disappointed. Life is going to be just as hard. Problems are going to be just as present waiting for you. They might be different problems. Hopefully they're not problems with alcohol or problems with opiates. But like changes, this complex thing and recovery is this complex thing that really unfolds over years, you know. And people might not have answers to some of those. They might, but they're definitely not going to have answers for a long time, you know. And I've talked to people who have been in recovery for, you know, double digit years, who are like, I think I finally figured out how to start. And I'm like, Well, it took 17 years, but that that's actually not the goal anyway. The goal isn't to figure out why it started like the goal is to change the way we live so that we're okay having the past that we have, and it not creating barriers and problems in our relationships, in our life moving forward. Yeah, so there's a lot of question marks.
18:35
You bring up a really good point. And if your loved one gets out of treatment and may come home, they say, I'm cured, I can drink again. Oh, that's a lie. Yeah, it's a lie. It's not real. I can assure you emphatically that they cannot drink like a normal person.
18:53
We did not teach them that, no,
18:58
teach that. It is a lot. It's a lifelong process of recovery. We, I heard it's like a, it's something that we, you know, we, a lot of us, have say that we've recovered and we have it's like, it's like, when you, you know, we go through treatment, we get out of treatment, we start working a program, maybe work a program and celebrate recovery, or we go to 12 step meetings, or we get, you know, get a sponsor and do all those things. That's a that's something that we're going to have to do on a life long it's a lifelong journey. It never really goes away. It's something but it is mitigated, and it can be mitigated to a point where it's no longer present at all in somebody's life, and they're living this very fulfilling life. But it is a process. There is endeavor, a cut
19:50
off, yeah, yeah. Kathy, you said something earlier that I was going to ask you about to see if it kind of works the same way with. Families and in the program that that you work, I often have clients ask me not as much here, in in this kind of a treatment setting, sometimes here, but certainly when I was doing outpatient care and people weren't certain of the depths of their problems, right? Oftentimes, by the time time you end up here, there's clear evidence you've got a pretty deep problem. Yeah, it's not like, you just land in 90 day treatment, you know? You just like, Oh, I just happen to be here. I figured it might be good for me, but in the outpatient setting, I get asked a lot like, Do you think I'm an alcoholic? Like people will ask me that as a therapist, do you think I'm an alcoholic? Do you think I'm an addict? And my response is always, do you think you're an alcoholic like I can, I can check the boxes and diagnose you with a alcohol use disorder, but, but me doing that and somebody coming to the self identification of being an alcoholic are vastly different processes. Is that the same in your program? People coming, versus telling people you're co dependent or have a problem, you know, like, with enabling them coming to that conclusion on their own being a vital part of that process.
21:11
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I, like, I said, Drew is probably about a year and a half sober, and I started realizing I'm like, I am still, he's doing great, and the other family members like that just wasn't an issue anymore. He was like, my primary prop, I love you. It was a primary problem in that moment and but I was like, he's doing great, like, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, he's getting healthier and healthier, and I'm realizing I'm still scared all the time. I'm still worried. I am thinking up things to worry about too. That's not normal. To the point was I was working here at the time, and so I think I was blessed in that I was working around so many people, working recovery programs. I was lucky that I get to hear you guys talking about that stuff all the time. And I think it finally started seeping in that, hmm, this might be something, is there a family version of this? This might be something that I could use, yeah, to the point where I literally considered, like, I wonder if the counselors would let me sit in on groups here. I wonder if then I'm like, That's inappropriate. Going to a family program had been mentioned to me a couple times. My reaction every time was, What are you talking about? There's nothing wrong with me. I didn't do anything wrong. Why do I have to go to meetings? What you don't know me. You don't understand it's always like you guys defensive, on the defensive every time. And I think both sides of it, it comes down to you got to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. And we don't realize that we're just as sick. Maybe worse, maybe worse. Yeah, but yeah, it's Yeah. Most people walk into our rooms exhausted and terrified and desperate because we don't want to be there. We you know, but yes to answer your question, that's a very wordy version of Yes.
23:19
It's good. We walk into it as well. We struggle with so many of the same problems. Realize it? No, we don't. We don't
23:29
know. I remember the first time I went to a speaker meeting and listened to somebody who spent many years in alcoholism and almost fell out of my chair, because, like you, how am I relating to I don't understand we're exactly the same. It just manifests differently. But the crazy going on in there, and what you're talking about
23:52
speaker meeting, is it was more likely a meeting about call autonomous so in AA, there are what are called closed meetings. And open meetings. Closed meetings are specifically for the person that identifies themselves as an alcoholic. But open meetings, generally, Open Meetings are meetings where they are, where the community can come in, the loved ones can come in. And they're generally speaker meetings. And so you can go in, you can hear the story. And so I, I encourage anybody you know, all for all of our families listening. If you want to hear the story of somebody who has gotten through the other side of it and has recovered, those are great places to hear stories like that. Yeah, because generally, they're really redemptive. Oh, they are and so inspiring. Sometimes to say,
24:40
like, I'm glad you said that. I think that's a fantastic idea, because it wasn't until I started, long before I got into my program, when I started working around amazing people I work with who are in recovery and hearing their stories. And I'm telling you, it's not just the how great I'm doing today. I make we hear. Stories of addiction, and part of me is like, what it's not who you are. Whoa. But the cool thing is, is my brain gets to go, that's who they were. They're working this program with them now. But it wasn't until I started actually making a point of trying to learn what I could about addiction and understand it better that I've realized it is, in fact, an illness. It's not just you being a jerk and not caring how your family members feel and doing whatever you want, but it also helped me understand that there how much I could actually relate to folks who have addiction issues, and how similar we really are. And like I said, it just comes out different. But yeah, I encourage anybody to go to a meeting if you can. Yeah, and
25:46
you can call, if you if you're looking for meetings. There's an app called the meeting guide that can guide you to your local meeting in your area. But you can also call the AAS main line just if you just Google Alcoholics Anonymous number. There are people on the other end of that phone that can help get you pointed in that direction and get you rocking.
26:07
Yeah, I think that's a solid recommendation for any any family member that has somebody who's actively in some sort of drug treatment programming, whether it's our level at a residential program, whether it's a detox level, whether somebody's just going to an outpatient counselor once a week because they have an alcohol problem, if there's an identified alcohol or drug problem that somebody's trying to fix that family needs to get plugged in to a family support group of some type. You know, whether that's Al Anon or Celebrate Recovery, or something like finding hope that does it, you know, with their own people, whatever that might look like,
26:46
and your loved one like doesn't have to be you could be 40 years old and you had alcoholic parent. Yeah, they may not even still be here, or they may be sober at this point. That doesn't mean that hasn't had some sort of
26:59
there's a whole program for adult children,
27:04
so many different programs. Um, also, your loved one doesn't have to be working on recovery themselves for you to get in there. That's right, if anything, seeing you get better and you learning not to engage in the nonsense anymore. There are so many people on the other side of it that have been like, look at my person getting better. Maybe I should try that too. Yeah.
27:32
Like, there are some people that kind of have your story where it's like, hey, my addict and alcoholic got healthy and inspired me to make my change. Yeah. But it also happens for a lot of people the other way around. Hey, my filthy my family's working this family program and getting really healthy on maybe I do have an alcohol problem. Maybe I do need to think about changing. Yeah, I'm going
27:50
to give a special shout out to finding hope. You mentioned their name. Yeah, they're a wonderful organization. We are actually going to support one of their retreats this evening. I'm headed out from the we're recording our podcast very early this morning. Actually, 730 is when we got our start. And so after this, I'm jetting out to Tulsa. I'm going to go support they're finding hope. Going to set up a booth, just be a resource for the families there. But they are doing a week or a weekend long retreat. This stuff can be a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, really, I have a, I have a ball in my recovery program that I work, and they, these guys and gals, are going to go out there. It's a really nice lodge in Tulsa, and they're just going to, they're going to spend the weekend enjoying each other's company, talking about, you know, their loved ones, and maybe shedding some tears. But ultimately, it's not that's not what it's primarily about. It's primarily about them finding themselves and then finding hope and sharing their own stories, sharing their own stories, making connections and stuff. So what for all of our families listening? This is a big it's, it's always a question like, What do I do with my loved one when they come out of treatment? And that's a that's a really hard thing to that's, that's a fine line to walk. I think what we recommend when somebody leaves country road is that we recommend them going into sober living and continuing their treatment. Yeah, whatever that looks like, whether they get into an IOP program, maybe an outpatient program, they receive, they still see the psychiatrist, or they get LinkedIn with a therapist, whatever the case, we always can sober living. Go, get go, get in touch with people that are that are doing this deal, and then also continue recovery program. One thing that it so, I guess my question is, can I keep my loved one in recovery? Can I keep them not drinking and using by giving things by. Giving them things they don't have, like a car or money or a job or a place to live, is, are those things helpful?
30:10
Would they've been helpful to you?
30:13
Would they have been helpful for me?
30:14
For do you lead a healthy life in recovery? No,
30:18
probably not. It would have been, you know, for me, it would have been enabling, right? It would have been enabling. It would have been the same thing that you were just talking about my family doing things for me that I could have done for myself.
30:30
I i on those sort of things I always go back to. If you wanted to find drugs, you you would find them. You would make the effort to go find them. If you didn't have a car and you needed to go get drugs, you would find a way to get there to go get the drugs. If you were hungry, you would find a way to eat. I'm not saying leave your loved one in the dirt and figure it out, kid, but you can't just hand somebody everything the biggest part of recovery on both sides is putting in the work and doing the effort and a you're not enabling somebody else, but also you're helping them get to the point where they realize they are capable of doing these things. You're helping them build some pride back in themselves. Weren't you excited every time you were able to go to your family member and go, Hey, not only am I sober, I just got a job. Oh, yeah, you know, it's those little
31:28
things. These are things that we don't celebrate it in the same way that we did when I first got right. Sure, little, tiny,
31:38
tiny. Wash your clothes.
31:43
You were sober all through.
31:45
Start texting your brain every time you do something like
31:55
they are there. Those are the baby steps with the big things like, you know, getting a simple job right out of right out of treatment, that's a big step, but, and, but it's also, in hindsight, a tiny step to get to where I was today. You know, yeah,
32:15
you used a word that I think was really important. You said getting a simple job, you know, families and people coming out of treatment are oftentimes in way too big of a hurry to get all of life back where it's supposed to have been in their mind, way too fast, and they over complicate things. You know, one of the reasons why I think sober living is so powerful and works so well. I mean, there's lots of different reasons, but one of those reasons is certainly why it's simple. You don't have to worry about things. You move into a place it's got furniture in it, like there's other people around, like there's a little bit of a structure, like you don't have to it's not overly complicated, like it is moving into a place by yourself that's completely empty and you're isolated, right? And that, that idea of how much power there is, and like, Hey, I'm just gonna get like, a job. Like, I'm not. I don't have to leave treatment after 90 days and get a career, right? No, the first week. Like, Hey, man, just go, like, get a job as a cashier somewhere and just create some stability and be content earning, having a minimum wage job that
33:26
just pays you right in your phone bill. Yeah? Because it's
33:28
going to change. It's going to change. Yeah. And if you, if you go too hard, too fast, I think we end up adding complexity, where complexity is actually a bad thing, you know, for life, which is probably the same in grain of salt, because I'm not actively working a program of AA never have, right? Um, the same recommendation that aa makes about relationships, right? And like, there's no hard and fast rule, but everybody says, Hey, to start a new relationship your first year of recovery. That's not because AA is anti relationship, right? It's not because people in AA don't want you to get married and don't want you to have romantic love and support. It's because relationships are complicated, and your first year of recovery is complicated enough. Don't add complexity to an already complicated process, because it's going to clog the gears. You know, keep things simple for a while. There's plenty of time for relationship. There's plenty of time for careers after you create that stability. But if you get out and you complicate things so much that you actually push yourselves back into a relapse, it's all for a wash.
34:36
A lot of I hear my brothers and sisters in recovery saying all the time, I'm not where I should be. And who says, right? Who says that you should be anywhere? Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's, this isn't linear. We were
34:51
just having this conversation yesterday along those same lines with people like, Oh, if I had to use drugs or alcohol, i. Would have fill in the blank, right? We had a client in the past who's like, Man, if I just would have done the right things, I would have been a division one wrestler. And my first thought is not, if you had a car wreck, lost your legs, even if you were sober, like all things considered, you don't know, like, what curveballs life throws at you, because life is just a natural ebb and flow of curve balls, right? So it's like, even somebody saying I'm not where I should be, take drugs now call out of the equation. You might be in a completely different space that's worse off or better, like there's there's no telemarketer, yeah, like, we can't get into that mentality of thinking like this is where I should be, or if I would have made this decision, my path would have been different, right? Because we are where we are, yeah, and that's our reality, and that's where we have to stay. Because the other thing that I'm not where I should be, talk or I would have done this, all of that is fantasy, delusion. There's it's made it's made up world, and it's just not it's what
36:02
if world living? Yeah, what ifs you? Reminds me I was saying life on life's terms. And so one of the things that I've that I've been meditating on, I say it all the time to my friends are probably like, oh god, he's gonna say it again. But, but what I've been meditating on lately is that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be at all times. If I'm in a bad situation, that's where I'm supposed to be. Life is life is putting me into a season where it's kicking me around a little bit, and I have an opportunity to learn a lesson and not have to revisit the season of my life if I don't take that opportunity to learn life's lessons. Right now, life is just going to keep kicking me down the road until I learn the lesson. But, but what that's done for me? What that's, you know, it's, it's put me, it's put me in a place where I can be grateful for the negative things that are happening. You know, because I have a God that I trust, I choose to call it God. It's just, it's something that's a power greater than myself, right? I choose to call it God in my life, just to simplify things. But I think, if this is really the meditative thing that I've been talking about, is that if I, if I can't be grateful for the negative things that are going on in my life. What I'm telling God is, I don't appreciate your handiwork. Your handiwork is no good. I'm going to go ahead and take this back now, and I'm going to try to figure it out on my own. What God's doing in my life and how I choose to see it today, which has brought me a ton of peace, is that I choose to see those negative things are our God is shifting things in my life and changing things around to bring about the better, good. He's, he's going to bring the better,
37:49
yeah, the better. Well, and there's, there's a whole line of like, still with philosophy thinking on that very subject, where they would tell you that your initial error is saying that something in your life is negative in the first place? Yeah, there's no negative or positive things that are just things, and we have no way of knowing whether something is a bad thing or a good thing. Mm, hmm. Like we that's our humanity, wanting to label everything that happens to us, you know, if I go out after we're done taping, you know, and go out to the car to leave and I've got a flat tire. I want to say, well, this is a terrible thing, stupid flat tire. I'm gonna be 30 minutes late for my next meeting. You know, a I don't even have a jack high enough to change the tires on my jeep right now. So I have a truck, right? It ruined my whole day. But in my mind, I'd be thinking, Oh, but I have no way. I don't have nearly enough comprehensive information to know whether that flat tire is a good thing or a bad thing. It it very well could be a good thing if it prevented me from having a fatality accident on I 35 because it delayed me instead of put me in a different position, right? And so the idea that the stoves would tell you is, just stop judging things, accept things that come your way for just being things, and deal with them and go to the next thing, right? Without that need to go, what's the terrible thing we gotta deal with this, you know, it's just what's happening to us, right? It's just the reality
39:15
in which we're good. Yeah, if you'd have talked to my family four years ago, five years ago, they would have, they would have thought that addiction was the worst thing that could have been put into our family's
39:25
life. And they feel completely different. They feel completely
39:27
different. They feel completely different because the other side of it, they they have a son that I wouldn't I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for what I had been,
39:35
yeah, or the person. I don't think my wife would mind me saying this. She had her first daughter when she was really young. I mean, not like 12 or anything, so not really young, but young and that dad decided to not stay around, you know, and there were people in her life that would have said like that, had this, how could this have happened to us? You know? But like, 29 years later, like she's one of the best people in everybody's lives, you know? So it's like, we don't know what, what, what outcomes are going to be from things that happen to us. These are just things that happen, and we just
40:15
roll with it. Well, like you just said, like I, I can't tell you how confusing it was to me, for the longest time that I would hear so many folks in AA that were like, they get up, I go to a speaker meeting, and they'd say, I'm a grateful alcoholic, and I'm like, a grateful alcohol. What is happening? You make no sense.
40:32
You guys are having way too much fun in here. You're grateful for something. Yeah, you're obviously still drunk.
40:39
Yeah? But it's like, the longer I've been around this community, and the longer I've been working my own program, like I get it because you would not be where you are. You wouldn't have had the growth you've had to this point. You're just, it's it made no sense. Like, there was quite a while there I was like, You're what's happening,
40:58
yeah, you realize people in recovery have a completely different
41:01
perspective. Perspective, yeah, and so it's y'all were talking earlier. I remember seeing something on Facebook or something not a while back, but I think it was like, worry free, or somebody was talking about, you know, you ask God for a cake, and he gives you the cake mix and eggs and oil, and you're like, not everything's handed to you the way you want it. Sometimes things are put in our path because we need to learn from them or grow from them. And the lovely thing is, you know, getting into these programs, we learn and we grow. Yeah, I do. I circle back on something. So you talked about, like, when your loved one gets out of treatment, what they need to do, one of the hardest things, and I think biggest things family members need to learn and get to a place that you have to understand, that recovery program has to come first. And I remember drew saying, you know that to me, like my recovery program, my meetings, all of these things, they have to come first that can stop you in the gut as the family, because in your mind, like you have been priority one for me through all of these things, and suddenly you're telling me, I'm back here and that this recovery program comes first that can hurt because all your we're over here excited, you're getting healthier, you're learning things I'm going to get my person back, and life's going to go back to normal. And that doesn't happen that way. And it can hurt and it can suck for a while, but again, the if you got to let your person with the program, and the longer they do that, the happier life gets, the peaceful life gets. The
42:41
other thing to tag on to that Cathy is, if families don't work their own program, yes, the relationships actually have a high probability of getting worse, because you have the addict or alcoholic that now has healthy perspective and a new outlook on life, because they've learned all these ways at some point in their journey to live life on life's terms and to gain acceptance and all these things, and that's a different person than you were in relationship with before. And if you're the same, it's conflictual. You know, to that point, the divorce rates for people in recovery are just as high as the divorce rates for people who are in active addiction, like a lot of spouses come home from treatment, and if, if the spouse syndromes hasn't done any work, the conflict continues to ensue, because they have different perspectives, right? That's interesting.
43:30
Well, I can tell you, like, if say, you know, I'm at home, and I've got a husband that's an alcoholic, and he's gone to treatment previous to him going to the treatment, and the whole time he's there. I have been making sure the kids get up in the morning and get to school, that they have their lunch to take with them when they get home. I'm making sure they're doing their homework, I'm making dinner, I'm getting them baths, I'm getting them to bed, I'm running the house, I'm paying the bills, I'm doing I'm doing all these things, and suddenly husband comes home and he's like, I need to be a functioning contributing member of this household. And my brain goes, sir,
44:06
go over there. Yeah. And then you have that first little conflict, and your husband go, you need to gain a little bit of acceptance, yeah. And you think, I'm gonna choke you. Years. How many years, yeah? How many years yeah, whatever side
44:23
of that you're on, what that other spouse, mom, sibling, cousin, whatever it is, how many years did you spend in that role where you were having to do all the things you were having to take care of everybody? How dare that person come back? I think they get a say in things, and you have to, like, if you're going to let your loved one grow no in all ways you have to work on YouTube, and I can tell you, during my relationship, it has changed so much in the last few years, like we communicate better, we fight better. We never fight, but we don't get along better sometimes. Um. Um, every everything, in every way, has gotten better. And I, honestly, I didn't think it needed to or could, because he's my person, but I never realized just how healthy and how much healthier communication are everything to get. You know, with both sorts of programs, yeah,
45:18
yeah. You post, you've put, I've witnessed it. You have put so much work into your own life, into your own recovery, and the change is significant. Thank you. It's, it's evident, just like his is evident. I saw him walking into treatment, just super angry. Veteran, tough guy, tough guy, ready to change very, very hard exterior. He's all right. Yeah, he's all right. We're getting pretty close to the end of this deal. Do You Have you guys had any thoughts that you wanted to flush out, anything you've been thinking about, or something that's on your heart that you want to flush out and tell the families that are no, I was just
46:01
going to circle back to how we started with thinking about what is addiction, and just to remind everybody that you don't you don't have to have that defined to get help, right? If there's a problem, start working on the problem. Like, start, start there. Like, by saying and agreeing with people like, Hey, do you feel like maybe Alcohol's a problem here? Like you don't have to have somebody doesn't have to be like, You're right. I'm an alcoholic. I'm going to treatment to start getting some help and moving in the right direction. So
46:33
and you as a family member, your loved one doesn't have to be getting help 100% for you to go work on you and get yourself to a healthier, yeah, happier place. There
46:44
will be, actually, it's possible, it is possible. And there will be comes of conflict where it feels like the world is going to crumble around and it feels maybe it feels like you can't go get that help. Or sometimes, you know, as weird as it to say, like maybe you don't deserve you. You don't feel like you deserve to go get that help with home. I'm here to tell you you do, and Kathy's here to tell you that you do. And this is something that you know. I remember when I was deciding if I was going to get sober or not. I was I there were two pads in the road. One was clear. I could clearly see the line. The other one was shrouded in fog. I had no idea what was going to what was going to come after I started walking down this path, the road that was clear was to maintain the same life that I was living. I could see relatively well what that looked like. Now. There were going to be consequences in that road that I could not have foreseen. You know, who knows I luckily I wasn't an addiction when fentanyl was was here. If I was, who knows if I'd be here, that would have been an unforeseen consequence on that road. However, the other road, I have no idea what it looks like at all. It is shroud and fog. It means turning away from all of these old ideas that I have, turning away from some of the people that I have in my life, turning away from the jobs that I have in my life. And it was so scary to turn from that and say, You know what? This is not something I deserve in my life. This isn't something I want in my life anymore. I'm going to walk down this path. I'm just going to walk into the fog. I'm so grateful I did. Yeah, who would have thought four years ago you sit on a podcast talking about addiction truths with family members like yourself? Who would have thought that,
48:30
yeah, I've said that exact same thing to clients before, that addiction is really painful, but it's also really predictable. So you know what to expect. Change is really unpredictable, and there's a lot of unknowns, and that fear oftentimes keeps people from turning the corner, because they're like, at least I know what to expect, yeah, if I keep doing what I'm
48:48
doing right? Yeah, at least you know what to expect this. You know what's coming.
48:51
Well, in the family side of it is, you know, I would just say, like, one of the scariest thing I've ever done, probably, was picking up that phone and asking somebody to help me. The second scariest, and I'm telling you, they were like, right there was walking into a meeting the first time. Yeah, so much stuff goes through your brain. What are these people going to think of me? What if I know somebody in there and I had this lovely woman just remind me, and Honey, we're all here for the same reason. Yeah, you're not going to stick out like a sore thumb. They're all here because you're here. So if you know somebody, surprise, they had stuff going on to you. Yeah, we all try and guide it so funny, like,
49:30
that's the fear. What if I know somebody here? But in the reality of that, that's the delusion of the fear. Because the reality is that's actually kind of comforting. It is, like, once you experience it, you're like, Oh, I'm glad I know somebody, Yeah, but you're so afraid that you know somebody there.
49:48
And just you find yourself among people on both sides of this that have been through what you've been through, who understand the crazy in your brain, all of those emotions. All of those big feelings. There are people out there that understand and they want to walk through it with you and help you get to a healthier, happier place. And you just have to take that leap and have the courage to do it.
50:09
Yeah, it's good. It's good. Amazing,
50:13
good stuff. Y'all, yeah, well, that concludes our episode today. If you have any questions about what we're talking about, you have any comments, you want to leave us a review, whatever, but particularly if you have questions and you don't know where to turn, don't know what the next step is. You know you're hearing about these speaker meetings. You're hearing about this finding hope, Celebrate Recovery, taking that, that path down the fog, but you have no idea what that next step is, give us a call. Yeah, I'll leave. I'll put our phone number. I will put our main line number in the chat. I will also throw in Kathy's number and my own personal cell phone number. If you want to call me, ask me questions about what addiction looks like in my life, or what recovery has been in Kathy's life, please reach out to us and submitting questions on the comment section of whatever platform you're watching this on, we will do our best to circle back around and answer those questions on Episode Four next month. Yeah,
51:15
if calling is scary, I get it text. Yeah, we're down for text as well. Sometimes it's much easier to text than Yeah, happy to use your voice, yeah,
51:26
yeah. So the text message, yeah, okay, bye, y'all, thank you guys, see ya. See you. Next thing, bye.